how to make the recipe with grapes vs just juice

[SeniorHobby]

Hello,
I harvested some Concord grapes this past fall, mashed them, removed the seeds & skins. My thought process in doing this was to not have such a high acid wine as the Concord grape can run high in acid. I did keep the seeds/skins as well, thinking that I might need them. After chatting with others I am finding out it is recommended fermenting with the skins. I might just ferment with the skins and seeds for a shorter time than the complete ferment to cut the acids. Reading the recipes now, I am a bit confused as to how much water to add to my batch. The recipe calls for 12 lbs of grapes to one gallon of wine. I'm assuming that would be unmashed grape weight. Right now I have 3 primaries with seeds and juice in them. The weights of each batch are 30 lbs total of which 11.9 lbs are mashed seeds/skins. # 2 is 29.7 lbs total of which 9.7 lbs are seeds/skins. # 3 is 29.7 lbs total of which 10 lbs are seeds/skins. If I look at the recipe for the weight of the seeds/skins of each batch I might be only making a 1 gallon batch. I am at a loss. Any help would be appreciated!

 

[winemaker81]

If I understand correctly, you're making a wine from the reserved grape solids, essentially making a second run wine by adding water to the pulp?

 

[SeniorHobby]

Hello,
I harvested some Concord grapes this past fall, mashed them, removed the seeds & skins. My thought process in doing this was to not have such a high acid wine as the Concord grape can run high in acid. I did keep the seeds/skins as well, thinking that I might need them. After chatting with others I am finding out it is recommended fermenting with the skins. I might just ferment with the skins and seeds for a shorter time than the complete ferment to cut the acids. Reading the recipes now, I am a bit confused as to how much water to add to my batch. The recipe calls for 12 lbs of grapes to one gallon of wine. I'm assuming that would be unmashed grape weight. Right now I have 3 primaries with seeds and juice in them. The weights of each batch are 30 lbs total of which 11.9 lbs are mashed seeds/skins. # 2 is 29.7 lbs total of which 9.7 lbs are seeds/skins. # 3 is 29.7 lbs total of which 10 lbs are seeds/skins. If I look at the recipe for the weight of the seeds/skins of each batch I might be only making a 1 gallon batch. I am at a loss. Any help would be appreciat

If I understand correctly, you're making a wine from the reserved grape solids, essentially making a second run wine by adding water to the pulp?

I should have weighed the grapes before I mashed them. This is a first run wine.

 

[SeniorHobby]

I should have weighed the grapes before I mashed them. This is a first run wine.

I have had the grapes frozen till now. They have not been fermented yet. I just squeezed the grapes to get the juice out of them before I fermented them.

 

[winemaker81]

So you have the juice AND the pulp? If so, I'd add no water. Check the SG of the juice and add sugar if necessary.

 

[SeniorHobby]

So you have the juice AND the pulp? If so, I'd add no water. Check the SG of the juice and add sugar if necessary.

Yes I saved the skins and seeds when I separated them thinking that maybe I needed them. In the past I pulled up the recipe, weighed out the number of pounds of grapes called for, squeezed them, if they didn't come up to the gallon size that the recipe called for I had to add water. The only difference now is that I have no idea how many pounds of grapes I have now that I have squeezed the juice out. Or, do I just ferment the straight juice as is and add in the seeds/skins for tannins.

 

[sour_grapes]

I believe that your recipe was simply telling you that if you start with 12 lbs. of grapes, you will wind up with about a gallon of wine (after fermenting on the skins and pressing).

 

[SeniorHobby]

Yes I saved the skins and seeds when I separated them thinking that maybe I needed them. In the past I pulled up the recipe, weighed out the number of pounds of grapes called for, squeezed them, if they didn't come up to the gallon size that the recipe called for I had to add water. The only difference now is that I have no idea how many pounds of grapes I have now that I have squeezed the juice out. Or, do I just ferment the straight juice as is and add in the seeds/skins for tannins.

I believe that your recipe was simply telling you that if you start with 12 lbs. of grapes, you will wind up with about a gallon of wine (after fermenting on the skins and pressing).

Thanks sour grapes. I guess when making the recipe I thought I needed more liquid than the small amount that was in the bucket, besides the grapes. I was hoping to have a lot more actually! Seems like you don't get much wine for the amount of grapes/fruit needed to make a gallon. Wishful thinking on my part!! So I have this juice, I have taken the sp gr already. That was always another question. I would take the sp gr, then add water and after adding the amount of required sugar it didn't bring me up to the sp gr I was supposed to get. I wasn't supposed to be adding water to get to the gallon amount. So when I did add the water that changed my starting sp gr reading. I see said that blind woman!! Thanks for the help Sour Grapes & Winemaker81!

 

[Rice_Guy]

- seeds are usually considered bad flavor, if you can eliminate seeds
- skins are useful for vinifera since they have smooth tasting tannins. Concord is a native grape, when fermenting concord on the skins I didn’t like the flavor. A quick test, if you remove skins and chew them, do you like the flavor?
- acid can be reduced with cold, I ferment then put it in as cold a space as I can. Racking this week I found flakes of tartrate in carboys on the basement floor, pH increased to 3.5 and TA down to .7% ,,, basically you have options besides diluting with water.
- I don’t dilute with water normally
- I like concord with cranberry for long tannin like flavor notes.
- you should be able to make something like morgen david communion wine with straight juice

 

[SeniorHobby]

- seeds are usually considered bad flavor, if you can eliminate seeds
- skins are useful for vinifera since they have smooth tasting tannins. Concord is a native grape, when fermenting concord on the skins I didn’t like the flavor. A quick test, if you remove skins and chew them, do you like the flavor?
- acid can be reduced with cold, I ferment then put it in as cold a space as I can. Racking this week I found flakes of tartrate in carboys on the basement floor, pH increased to 3.5 and TA down to .7% ,,, basically you have options besides diluting with water.
- I don’t dilute with water normally
- I like concord with cranberry for long tannin like flavor notes.
- you should be able to make something like morgen david communion wine with straight juice

I'm not a big Mogan David fan so maybe I should add water. I don't have cranberry around here, I do have some raspberry in the secondary right now . I am also making an apple. Do either of these blend with Concord?

 

[winemaker81]

Yes I saved the skins and seeds when I separated them thinking that maybe I needed them. In the past I pulled up the recipe, weighed out the number of pounds of grapes called for, squeezed them, if they didn't come up to the gallon size that the recipe called for I had to add water. The only difference now is that I have no idea how many pounds of grapes I have now that I have squeezed the juice out. Or, do I just ferment the straight juice as is and add in the seeds/skins for tannins.

I have had really good barrel aged Concord, and Concord mixed into other wines, but I've never made it, so my opinion is subject to question. [Honestly, my opinion should ALWAYS be subject to question.]

I assume Paul's (@sour_grapes) comment is correct, and I've yet to see David (@Rice_Guy) wrong, so based upon that, I'd ferment all together and press between 1.030 and 1.020.

Regarding blending with Raspberry and/or Apple? Bulk age 3 months and bench test.

Many moons ago a friend (owned a winery) sold Marechal Foch at 6 months old. Most of the local wineries sold at 1+ year old and wondered how in the heck she had a drinkable wine at 6 months old. Her secret? 5% Concord blended in.

That was my first lesson that there's no such thing as an impossible blend.

 

[Rice_Guy]

- I will use apple juice or white grape (Old Orchard 100% juice frozen) in recipes instead of water. The flavor is mild but adds some fruit notes.
- the cranberry I have used was a concentrate from the organic juice section at the grocery.
- concord has nice fruity aromatics. what I am looking to add with concord is long flavor notes. A LD Carlson fermentation tannin would work. A few percent elderberry or aronia is another way build long notes.
- raspberry has nice aromatics and high acid. So far I haven’t done that blend, they are close in qualities.

 

[SeniorHobby]

Thanks for the replies everyone!
I have chosen to add the skins (with the seeds...not separating them out, too much work!!) for at least a few days in the Concord wine. I did add a small amount of water, ex 1/2 gallon to a 3 1/2 gallon batch. Mainly because I'm not a heavy Mogan David type of wine drinker. So my next issue is the pH and acid level. Batch #1 2.82pH, .875% acid level, aka 8.75 g/L? Batch #2 2.83ph, .97% acid, aka 9.7 g/L? Batch#3 2.87 pH 1.05% acid, aka 1.05 g/L?
The pH is too low, needs to be adjusted. I am using the Lalvin 71B yeast which will lower it by up to 1 g/L. This whole raising the pH is too much for my brain. A low pH means high acidity. This means I won't be adding acid, correct? At this point do I add the calcium carbonate?
The desired range for pH is 3.0-3.55, the desired Titratable Acid levels for red wines are 6-8 g/L. So does the 71B get me to the range I am looking for in the acid? Batch #1 @ 8.75 g/L becomes 7.75 g/L? The same for the next two batches. Does this also bring up my pH as I need to bring it up between .25 to .45 g/L depending on the batch.
In the meantime I added the potassium metabisulfite tonight, then tomorrow I will need to adjust the pH, acid, then add the pectic enzyme.
I've been at this a while, but this stage is still confusing to me!
Thanks for the help!

 

[Rice_Guy]

pH and TA are two different measures. For you as a person pH of 2.0 in a cola is OK but for yeast anything below 2.8 they struggle. ,,, ie we set pH for happy yeast and the chemical reaction potential.

TA is a measure of if your taste buds are being overpowered by grams of acid. Back to the cola with a TA of 0.2% saliva washes your mouth quickly so it is pleasing. Rhubarb stalks with a TA of 1.2% will grab the taste buds. ,,, BUT some of the taste buds react to sugar so if you dunk the rhubarb in sugar then eat the sweet taste buds say yippee and the acid taste buds say yuck but the average sensation in the brain is pleasing.
Yes it is complicated, ,,, TA is a balancing act. ,,, the alcohol is sweet on taste buds and if you added a tannin this chemical acts on the sour taste buds. ,,, AND if I tell you it is a lemon flavor the brain tells you to expect acid.

On my part I would use a little potassium (or calcium) carbonate targeting pH 3.0 and after active fermentation move the wine to the garage at 28F or even basement floor at 60F to make tartaric acid crystals and physically remove some total acidity. I have been surprised to see crystals in the fine lees of northern grape wine and magically the pH raised to 3.5/ TA dropped to 0.7%

 

[SeniorHobby]

pH and TA are two different measures. For you as a person pH of 2.0 in a cola is OK but for yeast anything below 2.8 they struggle. ,,, ie we set pH for happy yeast and the chemical reaction potential.

TA is a measure of if your taste buds are being overpowered by grams of acid. Back to the cola with a TA of 0.2% saliva washes your mouth quickly so it is pleasing. Rhubarb stalks with a TA of 1.2% will grab the taste buds. ,,, BUT some of the taste buds react to sugar so if you dunk the rhubarb in sugar then eat the sweet taste buds say yippee and the acid taste buds say yuck but the average sensation in the brain is pleasing.
Yes it is complicated, ,,, TA is a balancing act. ,,, the alcohol is sweet on taste buds and if you added a tannin this chemical acts on the sour taste buds. ,,, AND if I tell you it is a lemon flavor the brain tells you to expect acid.

On my part I would use a little potassium (or calcium) carbonate targeting pH 3.0 and after active fermentation move the wine to the garage at 28F or even basement floor at 60F to make tartaric acid crystals and physically remove some total acidity. I have been surprised to see crystals in the fine lees of northern grape wine and magically the pH raised to 3.5/ TA dropped to 0.7%

Thanks Rice_Guy,
I will start by adding .66 g/L of Calcium carbonate to get the pH up an acid down, keeping in mind the increase in volume once this is added.
Thanks!

 

[SeniorHobby]

Thanks Rice_Guy,
I will start by adding .66 g/L of Calcium carbonate to get the pH up an acid down, keeping in mind the increase in volume once this is added.
Thanks!

I added the calcium carbonate in two of my batches and potassium bicarbonate in the other two batches. The book warned of an increase in the volume, I didn't get that from either batch. Is that an indicator of freshness of the additive?

 

[Rice_Guy]

I added the calcium carbonate in two of my batches and potassium bicarbonate in the other two batches. The book warned of an increase in the volume, I didn't get that from either batch. Is that an indicator of freshness of the additive?

When they say an increase in volume they are saying worst case you will make a volcano like the grade school kids with vinegar and baking soda.
Patience! calcium carbonate is slow reacting and could take a week. Potassium carbonate reacts quickly. ,,, At this point I would go ahead and ferment knowing that when the fermentation is finished the pH might be above 3.5 and at that point one could debate if acid should be added back in to the wine. ,,,,,, patience. My bottle of calcium carbonate notes that 1/2 tsp will lower a gallon by 0.01%TA. ,,, I would stop at about pH 3.0 and try to do most of the shift in acid by chilling the finished wine.

 

[SeniorHobby]

When they say an increase in volume they are saying worst case you will make a volcano like the grade school kids with vinegar and baking soda.
Patience! calcium carbonate is slow reacting and could take a week. Potassium carbonate reacts quickly. ,,, At this point I would go ahead and ferment knowing that when the fermentation is finished the pH might be above 3.5 and at that point one could debate if acid should be added back in to the wine. ,,,,,, patience. My bottle of calcium carbonate notes that 1/2 tsp will lower a gallon by 0.01%TA. ,,, I would stop at about pH 3.0 and try to do most of the shift in acid by chilling the finished wine.

Thanks Rice Guy,
I did read that to go slow. I decided to do a trial to see which one I could get better results, each batch was 3 gallons. Batch 1 I added 7.5 gr of calcium carbonate, pH was 2.82, now is 2.88, Batch 2 added 7.5 gr of potassium bicarbonate, pH was 2.83, now is 2.85. Batch 3 I added 7.5 gr of potassium bicarbonate, pH was 2.87, now is 2.78. I also added the pectic enzyme in the morning, not sure if this might have thrown off the previous additions. I wanted to pitch the yeast tonight so I wanted to stay on the 12 hour regimen.

 

[weaverschmitz]

How did this batch turn out?

 

[SeniorHobby]

How did this batch turn out?

Hello weaverschmitz,
My wine from last year is still in the bulk storage. I haven't started my wine making season yet...lots of irons in the fire with elderly parents and helping them out a lot yet. I did move the carboys from my dark storage room to my garage to do the cold storage and try to drop some tartrate crystals. It's been about a week so I'm hoping to get at it next week sometime. I will respond when I get back at it! Are you fermenting a concord wine?