How to manage tannins

[Rotundifolia]

Last fall I got the last minute opportunity to purchase some Merlot grapes from Red Mountain AVA if I picked up the grapes that day. Needless to say I had no plan or research. The grapes were in very good shape and fully ripe with brown stems good taste. My batch has finished MLF. The smell is very good but 3 of the 4 carboys have a harsh astringent tannins. I then went researching and Red Mountain grapes typically have lots of tannins and the Merlots can have more than Cabs. So I have a two fold question

1. I know that the tannins will mellow over time, but is there something that I can do with the current batch to help out with the astringent taste?
2. Since I do like wine from this region and I have a source, I will be purchasing again this year. Likely a Cab or Sarah. Is there processes during fermentation/press to help reduce the astringent tannins but still have the good tannins?

 

[winemaker81]

1. Certain fining agents will reduce tannin. this is from WineMakeMagazine:

Tannins have a strong affinity for proteins, and so, you can fine using a protein-containing fining agent such as egg whites, gelatin, or isinglass. Since gelatin comes in different formulations, i.e. low vs. high molecular weight, choose the one that best fits your needs based on the manufacturer’s recommendations, and avoid overfining. Gelatin formulations with different molecular weights show preferential affinity for tannin size.​

​

PVPP, short for polyvinylpolypyrrolidone, is a highly insoluble, high-molecular weight synthetic polymer that is effective in absorbing and precipitating small tannins. And so, PVPP is recommended for early-drinking wine or where bitterness needs to be toned down.​

2. Remove as many stems as possible prior to fermentation, especially green stems.

Another choice is to remove the seeds from the must, as they will drop as fermentation continues. How to do this? I'd use a long handled slotted spoon.

 

[Rotundifolia]

1. Certain fining agents will reduce tannin. this is from WineMakeMagazine:

Tannins have a strong affinity for proteins, and so, you can fine using a protein-containing fining agent such as egg whites, gelatin, or isinglass. Since gelatin comes in different formulations, i.e. low vs. high molecular weight, choose the one that best fits your needs based on the manufacturer’s recommendations, and avoid overfining. Gelatin formulations with different molecular weights show preferential affinity for tannin size.​

​

PVPP, short for polyvinylpolypyrrolidone, is a highly insoluble, high-molecular weight synthetic polymer that is effective in absorbing and precipitating small tannins. And so, PVPP is recommended for early-drinking wine or where bitterness needs to be toned down.​

2. Remove as many stems as possible prior to fermentation, especially green stems.

Another choice is to remove the seeds from the must, as they will drop as fermentation continues. How to do this? I'd use a long handled slotted spoon.

Thank you very helpful. I did not know that fining agents also helped with tannins. I also like the long handled spoon idea. Much easier than ranking off before pressing.

 

[winemaker81]

Thank you very helpful. I did not know that fining agents also helped with tannins. I also like the long handled spoon idea. Much easier than ranking off before pressing.

Glad to be of service! Unlike the remaining 99.9999999% of the net, you'll find WMT to be very friendly to beginners.

Fining agents can have many effects upon wine, both benevolent and malign. [I just realized that rhymes nicely, I have to copyright it! ]

Check the following URL for information regarding the effects of fining agents. There are many pages devoted to the subject -- I find the Australian Wine Research Institute to be a good one.

https://www.awri.com.au/industry_su...ces/frequently_asked_questions/fining_agents/
In your situation, I'd try egg whites. Read about the negative effects of all the fining agents -- color removal for reds is common. DO NOT over-fine. If you're unsure, use 1/2 to 3/4 of the recommended dosage. Always keep in mind that it's far easier to add more than to take some out!

Regarding removal of seeds, after the second day of fermentation, I'd expect seeds to start dropping to the bottom of the fermenter. Before stirring/punchdown, use as long handled spoon to scoop up seeds. Don't worry about getting them all at any scooping, just reduce numbers.

Depending on the source of the excess tannin and bitterness, seed removal may not eliminate the problem. But you'll know how successful the fining agent is long before next fall. Also keep in mind that time will also have an effect -- red wine at 2 to 4 months of age tastes NOTHING like it will at 1 year. I'd try the egg whites, then withhold judgment for at least 6 months.

I suggest you taste the wine monthly, recording your impressions. There is nothing better for your learning than your own notes.

 

[ibglowin]

If this wine was from last Fall like 3 months ago do not under any circumstances use ANY fining agent. You will be sorry down the road. Any wine from grapes needs at least 1 full year and many times 2 full years to soften and come around.

You are tasting GREEN wine that just needs time to settle in. That takes time.

Don't press as hard next time if you want less tannin or separate the free run from the press run but do not add any fining agent to a Red Mountain wine made from fresh grapes.

That would be sacrilegious if you ever did that.

Last fall I got the last minute opportunity to purchase some Merlot grapes from Red Mountain AVA if I picked up the grapes that day. Needless to say I had no plan or research. The grapes were in very good shape and fully ripe with brown stems good taste. My batch has finished MLF. The smell is very good but 3 of the 4 carboys have a harsh astringent tannins. I then went researching and Red Mountain grapes typically have lots of tannins and the Merlots can have more than Cabs. So I have a two fold question

1. I know that the tannins will mellow over time, but is there something that I can do with the current batch to help out with the astringent taste?
2. Since I do like wine from this region and I have a source, I will be purchasing again this year. Likely a Cab or Sarah. Is there processes during fermentation/press to help reduce the astringent tannins but still have the good tannins?

 

[winemaker81]

If this wine was from last Fall like 3 months ago do not under any circumstances use ANY fining agent.

Mike, good call. I stand corrected. I answered too quickly without considering the age of the wine.

My advice IS correct ... 9 to 12 months from now.

At the same time, we need to consider @Rotundifolia's tastes, which may not include a red as tannic as one you or I would like.

@Rotundifolia, I agree with Mike, add nothing now. I recommend adding K-meta every 3 months, but nothing else. Next September or so, taste the wine, and see if your opinion has changed. It's also fine to taste the wine in between -- in fact it's a good idea, so you see how it changes with age.

Time and patience are a winemaker's friend.

 

[kirschwine72]

1. Certain fining agents will reduce tannin. this is from WineMakeMagazine:

Tannins have a strong affinity for proteins, and so, you can fine using a protein-containing fining agent such as egg whites, gelatin, or isinglass. Since gelatin comes in different formulations, i.e. low vs. high molecular weight, choose the one that best fits your needs based on the manufacturer’s recommendations, and avoid overfining. Gelatin formulations with different molecular weights show preferential affinity for tannin size.​

​

PVPP, short for polyvinylpolypyrrolidone, is a highly insoluble, high-molecular weight synthetic polymer that is effective in absorbing and precipitating small tannins. And so, PVPP is recommended for early-drinking wine or where bitterness needs to be toned down.​

2. Remove as many stems as possible prior to fermentation, especially green stems.

Another choice is to remove the seeds from the must, as they will drop as fermentation continues. How to do this? I'd use a long handled slotted spoon.

Wish I would have seen this before. My wine sat in the final carboy for over a year with a few seeds-not much, but it came out with a lot of tannins. I think it was from seeds and stems in the first fermentation, but can't do anything about that now. I bottled them already and used a bit of dextrose which helped, but my question is whether they will mellow with time. Should I just wait a year or more to drink to let the tannins calm down or is it too late?

 

[kirschwine72]

If this wine was from last Fall like 3 months ago do not under any circumstances use ANY fining agent. You will be sorry down the road. Any wine from grapes needs at least 1 full year and many times 2 full years to soften and come around.

You are tasting GREEN wine that just needs time to settle in. That takes time.

Don't press as hard next time if you want less tannin or separate the free run from the press run but do not add any fining agent to a Red Mountain wine made from fresh grapes.

That would be sacrilegious if you ever did that.

when you say a year or two to soften, do you mean after bottling? Mine sat in the carboy for over 1 year (yeah, I'm lazy, but the bubbler was always attached and 100% sealed). I had very high tannin tastes, and I can wait if you think that is best. They are home grapes from a very very old vine for Minnesota. Probably Frontenac. Vines are 60+ years old. Very productive. One of the original vines from a horticulture professor at U of M, where it was developed.

 

[kirschwine72]

Thanks for being so open to communicating with beginners!

 

[winemaker81]

Wish I would have seek this before. My wine sat in the final carboy for over a year with a few seeds-not much, but it came out with a lot of tannins. I think it was from seeds and stems in the first fermentation, but can't do anything about that now. I bottled them already and used a bit of dextrose which helped, but my question is whether they will mellow with time. Should I just wait a year or more to drink to let the tannins calm down or is it too late?

Time is usually your friend in winemaking. I see several, non-exclusive choices.

First is yes, let the wine age. I'm aging my heavier reds a year or so in bulk (carboy or barrel), and some are not really drinkable until 2 or 3 years old. Or more.

A second choice is to judiciously blend the wine into others to provide tannin character. Bench test this, taking a sample of the wine to blend into, and add small amounts (5%, 10%, 15%), and compare. If feeling skittish, make a gallon of your favorite blend, bottle, and give it 3 to 6 months before taste testing again.

Thanks for being so open to communicating with beginners!

Adult treatment of newcomers is situation normal on this forum.

I participate on technical forums and used to participate on gaming forums where there typical maturity level is about age 9. It's great to converse with mature folks.

 

[winemaker81]

Wish I would have seek this before. My wine sat in the final carboy for over a year with a few seeds-not much, but it came out with a lot of tannins.

Hindsight is 20/20, don't beat yourself up. As mentioned above, you have options and your knowledge has been greatly expanded in this area.

 

[ibglowin]

Have never worked with Frontenac but it is supposed one of the lowest hybrid grapes as far as tannin content.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8400854/
It is also supposedly very high in acid. What is your pH and TA?

If you take out a few ounces into a wine glass and let it sit for a an hour does the wine soften. If that happens it probably is tannin. If it still taste harsh with no change perhaps your numbers are off. From what I read Frontenac is often made off dry due to the high acid content.

Wish I would have seen this before. My wine sat in the final carboy for over a year with a few seeds-not much, but it came out with a lot of tannins. I think it was from seeds and stems in the first fermentation, but can't do anything about that now. I bottled them already and used a bit of dextrose which helped, but my question is whether they will mellow with time. Should I just wait a year or more to drink to let the tannins calm down or is it too late?