If you had to pick, which one?

[crabjoe]

A few weeks ago, I ordered some PH test strips. Ended up sending them back because they were to expire in a month. I also thought adjusting to PH would be enough for wine making..

After reading a bunch of posts on this forum, it seems it's not as simple as just adjusting PH to get a proper wine. TA seems to be the other thing.

Originally I was going to order something to measure TA and PH.. but after ordering a bunch of other stuff, it seems I'll just have to get a cheap PH meter.

But here's the question. If you can only get one of the two, is a PH meter more useful than a TA tester?

BTW, I thought about getting one of those cheap BSG or Vinters TA testing kit, but my understanding is that they only work on whites.. Also the review I saw on them weren't very good. Are either of these to kits worth it to own?

Thanks!

 

[user 36973]

TA is what you end up tasting and IS the acidity you will perceive in the wine. You absolutely need to manage the TA for the style of the wine you are making.

The pH affects the yeast activity during fermentation and spoilage risk afterwards. You can't ignore the pH but you can manage it with sulfites.

Bottom line is you need to know both. TA is more critical in my view as that directly impacts your taste of the wine. The pH can live within a range but can't exceed an upper threshold without risking oxidation/spoilage.

Buy a <$100 pH meter and a $20 titration kit and you are golden.

 

[user 36973]

PH test strips

and the pH test strips are worthless. Not accurate enough to make a real decision.

 

[user 36973]

Buy a <$100 pH meter and a $20 titration kit and you are golden.

Of course the meter is also worthless without a few bucks spent on the pH standards needed to calibrate it. Be sure to get those too

 

[crabjoe]

Of course the meter is also worthless without a few bucks spent on the pH standards needed to calibrate it. Be sure to get those too

I ordered the test solutions too.

 

[crabjoe]

TA is what you end up tasting and IS the acidity you will perceive in the wine. You absolutely need to manage the TA for the style of the wine you are making.

The pH affects the yeast activity during fermentation and spoilage risk afterwards. You can't ignore the pH but you can manage it with sulfites.

Bottom line is you need to know both. TA is more critical in my view as that directly impacts your taste of the wine. The pH can live within a range but can't exceed an upper threshold without risking oxidation/spoilage.

Buy a <$100 pH meter and a $20 titration kit and you are golden.

My issue with the cheap TA kits is that they seem to only do whites. Is there a cheap TA kit that does reds?

 

[cmason1957]

My issue with the cheap TA kits is that they seem to only do whites. Is there a cheap TA kit that does reds?

That is why you buy the pH meter also. The color change you are looking for happens at a pH of 8.2, slow down how much you are adding as you approach 7.5,it goes fast.

And if I could measure only one, pH is probably more important. It tells you about long term stability of your wine. I seldom measure ta any longer. I have read from several commercial guys, they try to get pH as close to 3.6 preferment and then adjust to taste after ferment, but those are minor adjustments.

 

[Ignoble Grape]

@crabjoe Would you post the link to the meter you end up buying? Or are thinking about buying...I'm in the market for the same.

I have the TA kit and tried to use it on a really light pinot this year - almost rose - I found that the indicator had issues on whether it wanted to turn the wine pink or grey - in the end I just gave up as it seemed more or less in range.

 

[crabjoe]

I was on YT and saw a video on how to measure TA with a PH meter and sodium hydroxide. How accurate is this method? Because if all I need is a syringe and some solution with the PH meter, I'm gonna go with it instead of the color test, since it would work on both whites and reds.

Thanks!

 

[cmason1957]

I was on YT and saw a video on how to measure TA with a PH meter and sodium hydroxide. How accurate is this method? Because if all I need is a syringe and some solution with the PH meter, I'm gonna go with it instead of the color test, since it would work on both whites and reds.

Thanks!

It is dang sure more accurate than trying to guess when the color change is just right.

 

[Rice_Guy]

@crabjoe You have a TA kit if you have a pH meter, a .02 ml accurate syringe (ex from pharmacy for kids meds) and sodium hydroxide (the consumable reagent with my kit a decade ago kit)
@Ignoble Grape I recommend Extech as the best I’ve seen for titrations. It lets one do pH with as little as one drop.

I agree with @jgmillr1 that TA is the key for flavor balance in formulated grocery store beverages/ sodas. More TA gives more depth of flavor. i disagree to the extent that you probably are fermenting juices that are balanced ie easy to drink. In this case you probably are within target TA and can put off the purchase of reagents to measure TA. Note though it is an easy/ cheap test.

If you are fermenting juices which you only tolerate with a good dose of sugar the TA is high and needs to be worked around. (ex unsweetened cranberry, Real lemon, rhurbarb) If water like than you will need more TA.

 

[crabjoe]

View attachment 58169 @crabjoe You have a TA kit if you have a pH meter, a .02 ml accurate syringe (ex from pharmacy for kids meds) and sodium hydroxide (the consumable reagent with my kit a decade ago kit)
@Ignoble Grape I recommend Extech as the best I’ve seen for titrations. It lets one do pH with as little as one drop.

I agree with @jgmillr1 that TA is the key for flavor balance in formulated grocery store beverages/ sodas. More TA gives more depth of flavor. i disagree to the extent that you probably are fermenting juices that are balanced ie easy to drink. In this case you probably are within target TA and can put off the purchase of reagents to measure TA. Note though it is an easy/ cheap test.

If you are fermenting juices which you only tolerate with a good dose of sugar the TA is high and needs to be worked around. (ex unsweetened cranberry, Real lemon, rhurbarb) If water like than you will need more TA.

I have an old cheap manual cal digital PH meter, but since I don't trust it, I went ahead and ordered the Aprea PH60. I guess I'd better go order myself some syrings and some lye solution at .1n.

Is this the correct fomula?
TA = (milliliters of NaOH / milliliters of juice) X 0.75

BTW, should I get a magnetic stir plate?

 

[Rusty Nesmith]

You can get the syringe free from your local pharmacy.

 

[Rice_Guy]

I am getting 0.2N sodium hydroxide at my wine toys store.

The direction on my kit was;
Measure 15 cc of test liquid
Titrate to pH 8.2 (phenothalein end point)
My kit Using 0.2N alkali, 1.0 cc equals 0.1%TA as tartaric; ie %TA= volume alkali/10
if you are using 0.1N the conversion is 0.05% per cc

Vinmetrica using their 0.133N alkali and a 5.0 ml sample, , , ,
TA (gm/L)= cc of alkali * 0.133N alkali * 75/ 5.0 ml sample
or as a percentage divide above by 10

I don’t use a stir plate. If you do you need to dilute with distilled water such that the glass bulb on the probe stays away from the stir bar. I like a fairly tall/skinny 100 ml beaker shape, anyway a stir bar needs to fit the vessel with space for a probe. To me swirling till stable when pH is above 6 is easy, I leave the stir bar in the drawer.
My experience is the electronics in pH meters is stable, old tube ones need constant recalibration. Probes are stable in wine but get coated with protein (ex dairy) and oil samples (ex salad dressing)