Improving mouthfeel of cider

[BernardSmith]

I have been experimenting with hard cider over the last few months and am getting closer to a cider I like but I still have a problem with mouthfeel. The cider feels too thin. It tastes fine but feels as if there is insufficient body. I don't filter the cider and I really don't want to add glycerine or some other "additive" to give me the illusion that the drink is "thicker" than it really is. Is there something I can do that will give me the more substantial mouthfeel I am looking for? If I bottled the cider sooner with fewer rackings, would that increase the mouthfeel? Should I add lactic sugar (non fermentable) to the must? Should I freeze the apple juice and ferment only the juice that thaws sooner thus perhaps concentrating the apple by removing more of the water?

I remember cider from Britain and that seemed to be closer to a beer in terms of its mouthfeel. Any suggestions?

 

[ckvchestnut]

How many rackings do you do? We haven't used any additives for mouthfeel in the past and our cider turns out like what you describe for a beer type. Do you have carbonation in yours? Or is it flat tasting? I'm sure we only rack once maybe twice at the most and we put some sugar in each bottle to ensure a bit of carbonation when opening... I might consider an oak that imparts some tannin and some aroma such as vanilla. I just bought some Hungarian oak cubes that I'm excited to try. Never tried it in cider yet.

 

[BernardSmith]

How many rackings do you do? We haven't used any additives for mouthfeel in the past and our cider turns out like what you describe for a beer type. Do you have carbonation in yours? Or is it flat tasting? I'm sure we only rack once maybe twice at the most and we put some sugar in each bottle to ensure a bit of carbonation when opening... I might consider an oak that imparts some tannin and some aroma such as vanilla. I just bought some Hungarian oak cubes that I'm excited to try. Never tried it in cider yet.

Hi Carolyn, and thanks for your post. As I say I am experimenting and so
I tend to rack about 3 times (from primary to secondary, from secondary to clean carboy after a week if I dry hop) from clean to another clean for a few days before I bottle.
If sparkling, the problem of mouthfeel is mitigated by the effervescence. But I like my cider flat and that emphasizes the mouthfeel. As it happens I often add oak chips and will be experimenting with blocks and often add tannin (but have not tried vanilla - yet) and malic or tartaric or acid blend. I have tried different kinds of sugar but it is as if the juice is in and of itself very "thin" once all the particles drop out. (I generally bottle after about 3 months from the day I pitched the yeast - ). Perhaps I am just expecting too much from a drink that is about 6.5%ABV ... but I don't think so.

 

[ckvchestnut]

Ya the racking seems about right and we also do one final racking before bottling. Perhaps that is what your problem is? The expectation out of something that is typically low in alcohol. I'm thinking especially if you prefer it flat that maybe you should try experimenting with doing an apple wine instead and bumping up your abv to 11-12%? Then letting it age on oak.... That's what I'm doing right now with this batch I have. I bumped the OG up to 1.090 and now it's sitting quietly in the secondary and I'm contemplating oaking it after this racking.

 

[the_rayway]

I would recommend lactose for sugar, and oak dust in the primary. See what happens!

 

[ckvchestnut]

Yup I gonna try the oak dust in the primary on my next batch for sure. I have some in with my tropical daze and that will be my first time oaking in the primary, can't wait to see what it ends up like!

 

[WVMountaineerJack]

You are missing the bitter contribution from bittersweets and bittersharps? We put some crabs in our ciders and its almost thick You guys might want to get the Craft Cider Making by Andrew Lea, it pretty much answers most of the questions you have been asking. WVMJ

 

[ckvchestnut]

Hmmm maybe that's why we don't detect this problem! We have always mixed out apples of 4-5 different kinds with two different kinds of crabapples here. This batch we have going now is straight crabapple but two different kinds... Thanks for the suggestion on the book is it?

 

[BernardSmith]

You are missing the bitter contribution from bittersweets and bittersharps? We put some crabs in our ciders and its almost thick You guys might want to get the Craft Cider Making by Andrew Lea, it pretty much answers most of the questions you have been asking. WVMJ

I don't make enough cider to buy a press and the local orchards around here are happy to fill a 5 or 6 gallon carboy with apple juice but they won't add crab apples or specific varieties for me. I am hoping to develop a relationship with a new cidery that is opening in the area and that might help solve the problem of the bittersweet and sharps.

One thing I have been trying although not in a consistent way is to vary the kinds of yeasts. I think I have (more or less) the juice I want to use , the level of alcohol I want to obtain, the acidity I am looking for, the tannin level I like and the flavors I like from the hops... so perhaps different yeasts pitched into similar batches of must will result in different mouthfeel (although the bottle I opened this evening had , IMO, a fuller mouth feel than the one I opened last night.

 

[BernardSmith]

Ya the racking seems about right and we also do one final racking before bottling. Perhaps that is what your problem is? The expectation out of something that is typically low in alcohol. I'm thinking especially if you prefer it flat that maybe you should try experimenting with doing an apple wine instead and bumping up your abv to 11-12%? Then letting it age on oak.... That's what I'm doing right now with this batch I have. I bumped the OG up to 1.090 and now it's sitting quietly in the secondary and I'm contemplating oaking it after this racking.

Good point. But the apple wine I make (around 11-12% ABV and aged at least a year is not the problem. That tastes like apple wine and I enjoy the mouthfeel of that wine. The issue is when you plan to drink the cider not by the 4-6 oz glass but by the pint. You are not drinking it as part of a meal but enjoying a pint in the same way that people drink beer. But I wonder... I wonder if part of the issue is that I am not letting the cider age.

 

[ckvchestnut]

I was going to touch on that too... I have noticed that aging as with other wines and beers even, really makes a difference to everything including fruity flavors and aromas that aren't there when it's young...

 

[BernardSmith]

I was going to touch on that too... I have noticed that aging as with other wines and beers even, really makes a difference to everything including fruity flavors and aromas that aren't there when it's young...

The flavor is good. it's the mouthfeel. You can drink some cider and it flows like water. Other cider slides down your throat. There is a viscosity to it that makes it linger on the surface of your tongue and in your mouth. It's this viscosity that I am trying to increase. The gravity is just above 1.000 but I am not looking to make it more sweet or more full of flavor. I am looking for more "body". It should feel more like a heavy beer (like Old Peculier) than a light lager.

 

[ckvchestnut]

You probably aren't using the right apples then? Do you know what kind you are getting? Are you getting fresh pressed and uncleared juice? Apparently cider should have something like 5 different apple varieties to make a really good cider. I did find info online about the different types of apples being in different categories like bittersweets, etc. They all have different characteristics of tannins and acidity. I use maybe 6 or 7 different types of apples in mine. This batch tight now is crabapple but two different types. Have you tried using brown sugar over white? I know in my husbands beer it seems to make it taste thicker.

Here's a link that just touches on the subject on the different apple types. I wonder if that book lists which apples are in which category but again I'm sure the info is available online. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cider_apple

 

[ckvchestnut]

Maybe adding honey to backsweeten could help? I haven't tried it though.

Oh yes I just forgot, my hubby also uses hi malt glucose in some of his beers and he says it adds body and smoothness.

 

[Pumpkinman]

Carolyn,
I was going to suggest using brown sugar and a little honey as well. I used brown sugar on this last batch of cider and it has decent body.

 

[BernardSmith]

Carolyn,
I was going to suggest using brown sugar and a little honey as well. I used brown sugar on this last batch of cider and it has decent body.

I started a 6 gallon batch using brown sugar but the ABV will be closer to 11.5 % rather than the 6.5 I typically want to aim for. I was going to dub this batch wine and age it for at least a year

 

[ckvchestnut]

Sounds good! Hopefully the brown sugar will help a bit, I know that it can make a thicker syrupy texture over white sugar or at least in taste perception... so maybe it'll help!

 

[Pumpkinman]

I used the brown sugar to back sweeten, added 2 cans of pure apple concentrate, it tastes amazing!

 

[WVMountaineerJack]

What kind of crabs are you guys using? We are planting Dolgos,Chestnuts, Wickson, Transcendant, whitney plus our wildling tree. WVMJ

Hmmm maybe that's why we don't detect this problem! We have always mixed out apples of 4-5 different kinds with two different kinds of crabapples here. This batch we have going now is straight crabapple but two different kinds... Thanks for the suggestion on the book is it?

 

[ckvchestnut]

Do I wish I knew! We have two different kinds of crabs here they were here when we bought the place. On variety has a yellow and red skin with yellow flesh. The apple is shaped like a golden delicious with bumps on the bottom. They are quite sweet. The others look like baby Macintosh apples and are tart and astringent.... I'll take photos next summer sure would love to know what they are!