Increasing pH of finished wine (beer)?

[Seanywonton]

Okay....I don't really make wine. I am a professional beer brewer of barrel-aged sour beer. It's a lot like wine in many ways. I have a few sour beer barrels that are TOO sour. I'm wondering if the winemaking world has any techniques or products for slightly increasing the pH of a finished product, without changing the flavor otherwise.

In the case of these too sour beers...they are sittting around 3.1 pH and I would like to get them to more like 3.3 to 3.4 (without blending with another beer). Thanks for any help!

Sean

 

[ibglowin]

In the wine making world you can employ Potassium Carbonate in measured/ calculated amounts that will react with the Tartaric Acid in grape juice. The acid will fall out as a solid precipitate. This then raises the pH of the wine and makes the wine less acidic.

Since I am not a beer maker I have no idea about acids in beer but if there are any its possible it may work in the same method to some extent. You may wish to look at our sister site for more possible info:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/

 

[Flufnagel]

In the brewing world, calcium or sodium carbonate - baking soda - is commonly used to raise pH in the mash, for example with a grain bill comprising lots of roasted malts.

You might test that out on a small sample of your finished beer to see how it goes.

 

[BernardSmith]

In wine making, I think TA is more important AFTER fermentation than pH. Wine makers routinely produce wine with a pH of around 3.0, 3.2. If that did not worry the yeast , it wouldn't concern me. What might concern me is not the pH but the TA - the AMOUNT of acid in the wine.. but that ain't measured by pH. That is measured either by grams of acid /liter of wine.. and you determine that by titrating a base to hit a pH of 8.2 and then using that volume of the base to find the amount of acid it neutralized. You can also measure the TA in a non-metric way, by taste: if the wine tastes too acidic, it might need balancing with more sweetness or tannin, If it tastes too bland , it may need more acidity - and damn, the pH. You taste the TA not the pH.

 

[Raptor99]

You can also measure the TA in a non-metric way, by taste: if the wine tastes too acidic, it might need balancing with more sweetness or tannin, If it tastes too bland , it may need more acidity - and damn, the pH. You taste the TA not the pH.

That's my approach. I have not gotten set up (yet) for measuring TA. I adjust pH to a proper range before starting fermentation, then before bottling I adjust to get the right balance between acid, tannin, and sweetness. But I almost never try to reduce the acidity in the final step. If it is too tart, I increase the sweetness. If the initial pH is right, then it probably won't be way to acidic at that point. I know that pH and TA don't measure the same thing, but they are related, even if that is not a simple relationship.

 

[BernardSmith]

That's my approach. I have not gotten set up (yet) for measuring TA. I adjust pH to a proper range before starting fermentation, then before bottling I adjust to get the right balance between acid, tannin, and sweetness. But I almost never try to reduce the acidity in the final step. If it is too tart, I increase the sweetness. If the initial pH is right, then it probably won't be way to acidic at that point. I know that pH and TA don't measure the same thing, but they are related, even if that is not a simple relationship.

No expert, but are pH and TA related? They both are measures of acidity but the pH deals with the strength of the acids while the TA deals with the amounts , the volume of the acids, and so you can have a little (TA) of a strong acid (pH), a lot (TA) of a strong acid (pH), a little (TA) of a weak acid (pH) and a great deal (TA) of a weak acid (pH)... Not really related in any formal way. one is volume and one is strength. We taste volume. We don't taste strength.

 

[Raptor99]

I undersand that different acids have different strenghts, and that there's not a formula for converting one to the oher. But if we are talking about the same acid, e.g. tartaric, then if you add acid to increase the TA you will decrease the pH. Even with total TA, if you increase the TA by adding acid, wouldn't the pH go down? It certainly wouldn't go up.

I can see how it is possible for pH to be right but to still have the taste be not acidic enough or too acidic. If the finished wine tastes too acidic, I would probably add some sweetness rather than trying to reduce the acid at that point. Even in the bottle, the pH still matters as far as preservation.

 

[BernardSmith]

I don't know that the pH goes down if you simply add more tartaric to a tartaric acid wine. The TA would certainly rise, but the strength of the acids may not change, so the pH may not go down. Add malic and the pH would rise... (I think the bigger issue is the amount of hydrogen ions that can bind but I am not a chemist and I am totally outside of my safe zone here).

 

[Raptor99]

Interesting. I don't have enough chemistry background to figure this out. Why would adding malic acid cause the pH to rise? Does anyone with a chemistry background want to help out here?

I found this helpful article by the Australian Wine Research Institute: Acidity and pH - The Australian Wine Research Institute

 

[BernardSmith]

Rises because tartaric acid is about 2.5 or 2.7 times stronger than malic and it is the strength of the acid that registers on the pH meter. To find the TA you can also use a pH meter but now you are using it to determine how much volume of a known base Sodium hydroxide at a known molecular mass (1 mole) will shift the pH meter to 8.2 (the same point that the color would change if you were using phenolpthalein to see when it changed color.

 

[Raptor99]

pH is a measure of hydrogen ions. If you add malic acid to an existing must, would that decrease the number of hydrogen ions? That's what I don't understand.

 

[BernardSmith]

If the first volume was say, 1000 ml and you had N hydrogen ions because the acid was tartaric - and I may be very wrong - if you added another say, 100 ml with malic acid, the number of hydrogen ions per ml would be smaller and so - I think - the pH would be higher. Your pH meter would attach to fewer in any 1 ml of liquid with that added malic... BUT I am not a chemist, and I may be very wrong.

 

[Raptor99]

When I add malic acid, I stir it into a sample taken from the must and then mix it in. So the volume does not change at all. But I can understand how it might raise the pH if the malic acid was dissolved in a quantity of water.