Other Kieselol and Chitosan

[wineview]

FWK instructs to add both together. The general rule of thumb is to add Kielsol first wait 24 hours then add Chitosan because of their positive and negative properties. How important is it to wait the 24 hours. Will the two agents work as well if added together?

 

[salcoco]

I have been using these clearing agents for about 20 year or more. I add them one after the other, Have had no problem in wine clearing

 

[winemaker81]

The "24 hour rule" is from some kit vendors. With the exception of FWK, instructions I've seen call for adding kieselsol first, then wait for a period (2 minutes, 5 minutes, 1 hour, 24 hours) before adding the chitosan. Matteo has been spot on with so many things that I'll accept his word on this.

However, that's not what I did for my SB. For the first racking I unsealed the fermenter and started the siphon into a 23 liter carboy. Once it was going I carefully added 1/4 tsp K-meta and the kieselsol around the siphon hose. Once the siphon was complete, I stirred for 30 seconds with a drill-mounted stirring rod. Next I added the chitosan and stirred for 30 seconds in the opposite direction.

The FWK instructions say to stir for 30 seconds, which may be sufficient. Stirring after each addition was certainly enough. The wine is clearing very nicely so the timing of the additions AND the degassing are sufficient.

 

[wineview]

The "24 hour rule" is from some kit vendors. With the exception of FWK, instructions I've seen call for adding kieselsol first, then wait for a period (2 minutes, 5 minutes, 1 hour, 24 hours) before adding the chitosan. Matteo has been spot on with so many things that I'll accept his word on this.

However, that's not what I did for my SB. For the first racking I unsealed the fermenter and started the siphon into a 23 liter carboy. Once it was going I carefully added 1/4 tsp K-meta and the kieselsol around the siphon hose. Once the siphon was complete, I stirred for 30 seconds with a drill-mounted stirring rod. Next I added the chitosan and stirred for 30 seconds in the opposite direction.

The FWK instructions say to stir for 30 seconds, which may be sufficient. Stirring after each addition was certainly enough. The wine is clearing very nicely so the timing of the additions AND the degassing are sufficient.

So you degass after adding kieselol and Chitosan? And is 30 seconds really long enough?

 

[winemaker81]

So you degass after adding kieselol and Chitosan? And is 30 seconds really long enough?

The "normal" process for most kits is to degas, then add the K&C. I thought it through, and couldn't see a down side to not degassing first, but doing it after the racking (K-meta + kieselsol), and again after the chitosan was added. Most folks mistake "degassing" as an instant process -- my experience is that stirring jump starts the process, expelling a lot of CO2, and the remainder of the excess CO2 is emitted over following days and weeks.

Keep in mind that kit instructions are designed for newbies who will not necessarily follow the instructions completely. As such, my experience indicates the degassing instructions are overkill, to help ensure a newbie won't make a batch of mini-volcanoes.

While I can't say for sure that 30 seconds is sufficient, if you follow my above procedure, 60 seconds definitely is. The SB emitted no perceptible CO2 after 2 days -- I attribute this to spending an extra week in the fermenter plus the stirring.

 

[wineview]

The "normal" process for most kits is to degas, then add the K&C. I thought it through, and couldn't see a down side to not degassing first, but doing it after the racking (K-meta + kieselsol), and again after the chitosan was added. Most folks mistake "degassing" as an instant process -- my experience is that stirring jump starts the process, expelling a lot of CO2, and the remainder of the excess CO2 is emitted over following days and weeks.

Keep in mind that kit instructions are designed for newbies who will not necessarily follow the instructions completely. As such, my experience indicates the degassing instructions are overkill, to help ensure a newbie won't make a batch of mini-volcanoes.

While I can't say for sure that 30 seconds is sufficient, if you follow my above procedure, 60 seconds definitely is. The SB emitted no perceptible CO2 after 2 days -- I attribute this to spending an extra week in the fermenter plus the stirring.

My plan is to degass as I always do then add the clearing agents. When I make my fresh juice wine, I have waited as long as 8 months to degass after racking to carboys with no I’ll effects.

 

[cmason1957]

I ignore the directions somewhat and let it bulk age for at least 3 months, after having racked it under vacuum and added Kmeta. Then I rack again under vacuum, but first add Kmeta and the Kieselsol to the bottom of the carboy that will be receiving the wine. Wait some amount of time, but less than 24 hours add the Chitosan and stir with a three-pronged degassing device for about 15 seconds one direction, 15 the other and that's really not measured, just some.

The directions on a packet of DualFine say add the Kieselsol, wait a minimum of 1 hour, gently stir in the Chitosan for 30 seconds.

 

[winemaker81]

I ignore the directions somewhat and let it bulk age for at least 3 months, after having racked it under vacuum and added Kmeta.

Craig, thanks for posting an alternative. This is a great illustration that there's no single right choice -- between us, @wineview, and @salcoco we're giving a good overview of possibilities.

I'm coaching my niece and her husband through starting their second kit, and it's a good primer for me that things experienced winemakers consider simple are not for a beginner. Overall they're following the FWK instructions, but needed clarification on a few points. Plus we discussed bulk aging their SB (1st kit) vs. bottling now. [They are bulk aging for 3 to 6 months.]

As an IT guy, I have found that teaching non-technical end users is one of the most valuable experiences for an IT person. I'm now thinking that the best learning tool for mid-experience winemakers is to coach a beginner. It makes us think things through and consider how to explain to someone who lacks the references other winemakers usually understand.

 

[Bmd2k1]

...as for me - I've not used either so far in any of my vinos -- letting bulking aging, time and a couple rackings -- work their "magic". I took on this protocol from a home vintner "mentor" that had been doing it this way for 30+ years.

So far, I've been happy with the clarity of all my vinos.

Cheers!

YMMV

 

[winemaker81]

So far, I've been happy with the clarity of all my vinos.

This make method #5!

Either earlier in this thread, or in another, I mentioned that I'm considering a test for the triple batches I have in barrel. I didn't use K&C for either, and am considering fining 5 gallons of each to see what difference, if any, it makes.

 

[GaDawg]

I’ve waited, but never 24 hrs., maybe 3-5 minutes

 

[cmason1957]

This is probably one of those ask 10 winemakers get 20 opinions things.

I suppose I should add that back when I first started, I followed those directions down to the hour, almost. Rack at SG level 1.020 (as I recall the directions), 14 days do this, 14 more days do that, bottle at 2 month mark. Was paranoid that I might do something wrong and poison folks. It took about a year for me to realize this is a procrastinators hobby, for the most part. Wine is VERRRYYYY forgiving. It is almost nearly impossible for something that is going to harm folks to survive at the low PH, alcohol level above about 10% ABV level. The only thing that really, really matters is impeccable cleaning and sufficient sanitizing.

I sometimes forget that I have been making wine for about 12 years and not everyone knows what I think I know. Nor knows how little I think I know about some things.

 

[wineview]

...as for me - I've not used either so far in any of my vinos -- letting bulking aging, time and a couple rackings -- work their "magic". I took on this protocol from a home vintner "mentor" that had been doing it this way for 30+ years.

So far, I've been happy with the clarity of all my vinos.

Cheers!

YMMV

I must say, I agree with you. I have not used K&C in any of my wines and they have been pretty darn clear. Dare I say "bright". Let me add that I leave them in the carboy for 11-12 months with 2-3 rackings.

 

[BigPurk]

I am wondering if the K and C stay in the wine at all, and if they are harmful to consume.

 

[Ohio Bob]

The K&C help stick to particles and drop out as sediment. Even if you ate the sediment it wouldn’t be harmful.