Kieselsol and Chitosan Test results

[winemaker81]

We did not do a blind taste but I felt none of us were paying enough attention to the color / body / or structure to the wine. It was just a tasting of two separate glasses of wine. Pick the one you like the best ..... and it was close.

Your results spotlight a difference between test results and tastes.

30+ years ago I was in a British-style pub with friends. We were all dry wine drinkers and the pub owner got new wines in on a weekly basis. I'm sure we were loud.

An older couple (probably younger than I am now) sheepishly asked, "We don't like red wine. What should we drink with steak?"

I freaked them out. My answer? "White wine"

"Red wine goes best with red meat, but NEVER let anyone tell you what to like."

Never let anyone tell you that your tastes are wrong. Ya like what ya like.

 

[Gilmango]

Your results spotlight a difference between test results and tastes.

30+ years ago I was in a British-style pub with friends. We were all dry wine drinkers and the pub owner got new wines in on a weekly basis. I'm sure we were loud.

An older couple (probably younger than I am now) sheepishly asked, "We don't like red wine. What should we drink with steak?"

I freaked them out. My answer? "White wine"

"Red wine goes best with red meat, but NEVER let anyone tell you what to like."

Never let anyone tell you that your tastes are wrong. Ya like what ya like.

Yup, I do enjoy the occasional white wine, the aromatics are certainly more 'vivid' on average. But I drink 98% dry red wines, so I'm a bit of a specialist on either knowing which dry red wines will generally go better with fish, chicken, veggies. But I will also screw those notions entirely and drink what I like with whatever food (but even then I know tricks to make pairings work (fats and acids can be keys), especially if I'm cooking.

 

[winemaker81]

I went back / forth for a few days on if I was going to post my results. Wasn't looking to create any drama for WMT.

Don't worry about it. Disagreements happen.

Something I considered last night -- dosage.

I made only kits from 2000 to 2018, as I couldn't get good grapes. All except the early kits included K&C, and one thing I consistently noted was that kit wines have less aroma. My assumption was that this is a result of producing the concentrate, e.g., aromatics are blown off. Other folks have commented about kits having less aroma, so it's not just me.

While that may be true, my test results indicate the K&C are a factor. Each of the 2 batches was a single unit up until I reserved 19 liters of each for treatment with K&C, so other factors are not involved.

A common recommendation is to not overdose with most additives, especially fining agents. Too much of a fining agent strips more from the wine.

I'm wondering if the K&C dosage used in kits is on the high side, to help ensure a clear wine? That it's too high, so it is stripping aroma and introducing bitterness whereas a lesser dosage would not?

IIRC, I used the K&C from FWK as I had them on hand. Like with all 23 liter kits, those packets are designed for 20 to 23 liters of wine, and I used them on 19 liters. If the kit dosage is higher, my adding it to an even smaller volume of wine produced a greater effect.

Something to think about.

 

[wineview]

Don't worry about it. Disagreements happen.

Something I considered last night -- dosage.

I made only kits from 2000 to 2018, as I couldn't get good grapes. All except the early kits included K&C, and one thing I consistently noted was that kit wines have less aroma. My assumption was that this is a result of producing the concentrate, e.g., aromatics are blown off. Other folks have commented about kits having less aroma, so it's not just me.

While that may be true, my test results indicate the K&C are a factor. Each of the 2 batches was a single unit up until I reserved 19 liters of each for treatment with K&C, so other factors are not involved.

A common recommendation is to not overdose with most additives, especially fining agents. Too much of a fining agent strips more from the wine.

I'm wondering if the K&C dosage used in kits is on the high side, to help ensure a clear wine? That it's too high, so it is stripping aroma and introducing bitterness whereas a lesser dosage would not?

IIRC, I used the K&C from FWK as I had them on hand. Like with all 23 liter kits, those packets are designed for 20 to 23 liters of wine, and I used them on 19 liters. If the kit dosage is higher, my adding it to an even smaller volume of wine produced a greater effect.

Something to think about.

Yes kit overdosing is correct. These numbers are based on a 5-6 gallon batch. When you buy a kit they include 12.5 ml of keiselsol. That is .423 ounces. If you buy kieselsol in a bottle, the recommended dosage is .25 ounces. The kit almost doubles the bottle recommendation. A kit includes 75 ml of chitosan or 2.53 ounces. The bottle recommendation is 1 ounce. Again, the kit increases the dose by quite a bit. To make things worse, some kits include two packages of K&C to be added at different intervals. Talk about companies trying to cover their butts. If and when I use these additives, I cut the bottle recommendation in half.

 

[Raptor99]

Interesting discussion. I think that there are many factors that influence aroma and flavor, and whether K&C will harm the aroma or flavor:
* The flavor profile of that particular wine
* The amount of solids in the wine that need to be cleared, and exactly what they are
* The dosage of K&C used
* Temperature of the must when K&C is added??
* The temperature of the sample when taste testing
* What else you have had to eat or drink in the past several hours
* Your personal sense of taste and smell

Taste is a matter of personal preference. The aroma/taste detected by one person isn't exactly the same experience as that of another. Some people are closer to being super tasters than others and can detect changes that most people can't. Taste preferences differ. If the taste testing is not done by "secret ballot," then what the first person says is going to affect how the others perceive the wine.

Even if we had a detailed scientific analysis of exactly how the wine changed due to adding K&C, the tasting experience of different people would still be different.

In my case, I don't use K&C. Given enough time in bulk aging, my wine is quite clear. It looks very clear in the glass, and there is at most a very tiny bit of sediment at the bottom of the bottle. I don't see the need to "polish" it by removing that last 1% of suspended solids.

 

[wineview]

Interesting discussion. I think that there are many factors that influence aroma and flavor, and whether K&C will harm the aroma or flavor:
* The flavor profile of that particular wine
* The amount of solids in the wine that need to be cleared, and exactly what they are
* The dosage of K&C used
* Temperature of the must when K&C is added??
* The temperature of the sample when taste testing
* What else you have had to eat or drink in the past several hours
* Your personal sense of taste and smell

Taste is a matter of personal preference. The aroma/taste detected by one person isn't exactly the same experience as that of another. Some people are closer to being super tasters than others and can detect changes that most people can't. Taste preferences differ. If the taste testing is not done by "secret ballot," then what the first person says is going to affect how the others perceive the wine.

Even if we had a detailed scientific analysis of exactly how the wine changed due to adding K&C, the tasting experience of different people would still be different.

In my case, I don't use K&C. Given enough time in bulk aging, my wine is quite clear. It looks very clear in the glass, and there is at most a very tiny bit of sediment at the bottom of the bottle. I don't see the need to "polish" it by removing that last 1% of suspended solids.

I can appreciate individual taste and temperature etc. it is a fact however, that kits overdose with K&C.

 

[winemaker81]

Yes kit overdosing is correct. These numbers are based on a 5-6 gallon batch. When you buy a kit they include 12.5 ml of keiselsol. That is .423 ounces. If you buy kieselsol in a bottle, the recommended dosage is .25 ounces. The kit almost doubles the bottle recommendation. A kit includes 75 ml of chitosan or 2.53 ounces. The bottle recommendation is 1 ounce. Again, the kit increases the dose by quite a bit. To make things worse, some kits include two packages of K&C to be added at different intervals. Talk about companies trying to cover their butts. If and when I use these additives, I cut the bottle recommendation in half.

Thanks for posting this!

The best experiment for testing my hypothesis is to have 3 batches of the same wine -- one with no K&C, one with package level dosing, and the third with the K&C from a kit. I'm most interested in how samples 2 and 3 compare.

If the taste testing is not done by "secret ballot," then what the first person says is going to affect how the others perceive the wine.

I like the idea of having everyone take a minute to write down their perceptions, then discuss.

In my case, I don't use K&C. Given enough time in bulk aging, my wine is quite clear. It looks very clear in the glass, and there is at most a very tiny bit of sediment at the bottom of the bottle. I don't see the need to "polish" it by removing that last 1% of suspended solids.

I've developed the mantra "if it's not producing a positive effect, why am I doing it?"

In that light, I'm using fining agents only if there is a specific need, and I'm being very picky about which one(s) I use in a given wine.

When doing the final racking, I hold the cane off the bottom of the container and leave a bottle or two of wine in the container. The racked wine gets bottled and I typically have zero to very little sediment. The last of the wine gets bottled and is marked, and I use those first. If they're muddy, I'm ok with that.

 

[Shurt1073]

Yes kit overdosing is correct. These numbers are based on a 5-6 gallon batch. When you buy a kit they include 12.5 ml of keiselsol. That is .423 ounces. If you buy kieselsol in a bottle, the recommended dosage is .25 ounces. The kit almost doubles the bottle recommendation. A kit includes 75 ml of chitosan or 2.53 ounces. The bottle recommendation is 1 ounce. Again, the kit increases the dose by quite a bit. To make things worse, some kits include two packages of K&C to be added at different intervals. Talk about companies trying to cover their butts. If and when I use these additives, I cut the bottle recommendation in half.

That is very interesting stuff. Although my family / friends liked the wine with K&C the best, it still makes me want to cut down on the quantity of clearing agents I use. I wouldn't have a problem cutting my FWK clearing agents down to about 70% to see what happens on a kit. My only issue would be a wise man told me it's not always a good idea to try and make a good wine ..... better.

The past 20 months on WMT has been the most educational wine making period for me.

 

[winemaker81]

That is very interesting stuff. Although my family / friends liked the wine with K&C the best, it still makes me want to cut down on the quantity of clearing agents I use. I wouldn't have a problem cutting my FWK clearing agents down to about 70% to see what happens on a kit. My only issue would be a wise man told me it's not always a good idea to try and make a good wine ..... better.

The past 20 months on WMT has been the most educational wine making period for me.

If the family is happy with your wines as-is, why change anything?

My drinking habits are probably different, e.g., regardless of what I'm drinking, I tend to sniff it, so the aroma is a large part of what I do. This applies to most beverages, including non-alcoholic ones. It's also a reason why I tend to buy above mid-shelf, as the higher end liquors mostly have a better aroma as well as taste.

Regardless of what you decide, your experiment helps you understand what you like and don't like.

Next time you open these wines, duplicate my experiment and focus on aroma and bitterness. Do it blind so you don't know which is which until after the test. If you get similar results, it provides another data point. And if you don't get the same result? It's still a valuable data point.

 

[BarrelMonkey]

Thought I would chime in - I have little experience with fining agents but wanted to try to clear my sparkling elderflower base wine, it always seems to stay hazy even after months in the cellar. This year the wine is quite tart (pH 2.95, TA 7.2g/L, calculated 9.5% ABV) but I think will make a good sparkling base. I may blend with a gallon left over from last year which is a bit higher in both pH and alcohol and more intensely flavored.

I bought some Super Kleer and scaled down the dosage for 250mL wine: 0.125mL (about 4 drops) K, then after 2 hours 0.625mL C. After settling overnight, the KC sample was clearly...clearer. On blind tasting, the unfined wine left a somewhat flat, watery impression whereas the KC wine was more aromatic with an almost silky texture.

 

[winemaker81]

On blind tasting, the unfined wine left a somewhat flat, watery impression whereas the KC wine was more aromatic with an almost silky texture.

Thanks for chiming in.

This is not a clear cut situation.

 

[BarrelMonkey]

This is not a clear cut situation.

For sure... wine is such a complex mixture and we all have our own unique biographies and taste preferences, I'm honestly not surprised that a treatment that works for one person might not work for another (even for similar wines). Bench trials are key here, I think. In an ideal world I'd have tested several different fining agents but I only have 3 gallons to work with.

As another example, I think there were some generally negative comments about filtering elsewhere in this conversation. I don't have the ability to filter wines at home, but at the winery where I work we filter everything just prior to bottling, including reds (pinot noir). They do tend to taste a bit disjointed at first but that soon resolves, much akin to the 'bottle shock' that many wines go through when they move from barrel/tank to bottle. But if others swear that unfiltered is best, I'm not going to argue...

 

[winemaker81]

@BarrelMonkey, you make good points. For even my larger batches (15-20 gallons), doing several bench trials is not feasible. I did the K&C test as a one-off, choosing 2 wines for which to fine 19 liters of each. Fermenting space is a an issue, as as bottle storage. I already do 4 to 8 batches per year, and having to keep track of more batches is a problem, as I have limited storage space.

Additionally, business needs affect the process, e.g., a commercial wine having sediment in the bottle is a big problem, so filtering is a good course of action.

It's likely there are differences in the filter pads used in home winemaking setups and in large scale filters. More than one person on the forum has reported a soapy taste after filtering. I haven't heard if that goes away with time, and I suspect it's impurities in the pads.

I mentioned in other threads, an article I read in the Wine Spectator circa 1990, where the author identified exactly when a major French Chateau started filtering. He could taste the difference (not claiming I could).

Everything we do affects the wine. It's all a personal trade-off.


Another option I've not heard of in winemaking is a centrifuge. Aviator Brewing (near me) uses a centrifuge to clear their beers.

 

[Nebbiolo020]

@BarrelMonkey, you make good points. For even my larger batches (15-20 gallons), doing several bench trials is not feasible. I did the K&C test as a one-off, choosing 2 wines for which to fine 19 liters of each. Fermenting space is a an issue, as as bottle storage. I already do 4 to 8 batches per year, and having to keep track of more batches is a problem, as I have limited storage space.

Additionally, business needs affect the process, e.g., a commercial wine having sediment in the bottle is a big problem, so filtering is a good course of action.

It's likely there are differences in the filter pads used in home winemaking setups and in large scale filters. More than one person on the forum has reported a soapy taste after filtering. I haven't heard if that goes away with time, and I suspect it's impurities in the pads.

I mentioned in other threads, an article I read in the Wine Spectator circa 1990, where the author identified exactly when a major French Chateau started filtering. He could taste the difference (not claiming I could).

Everything we do affects the wine. It's all a personal trade-off.


Another option I've not heard of in winemaking is a centrifuge. Aviator Brewing (near me) uses a centrifuge to clear their beers.

Sediment doesn’t matter cause it pretty much all falls out naturally in tank so if you have a wine with enough sediment to need to filter it you have other problems. The filter pads home winemakers use are made from the same material than the pro stuff is made out of just obviously a smaller filter.

You can definitely taste if a wine has been filtered it tends to strip out tannins and sometimes wines taste thinner. Centrifuges are used exclusively to remove alcohol in some wines.

 

[winemaker81]

Sediment doesn’t matter cause it pretty much all falls out naturally in tank so if you have a wine with enough sediment to need to filter it you have other problems.

Sediment drops with time -- the vast majority of the time. Sediment does matter for commercial wineries. If I was running a commercial winery, I'd use at least a coarse filter to ensure the wines don't drop sediment in the bottle.

That said, your point is a good one -- if the wine has to be filtered, it needs something else done, even if it's just more time in bulk.

The filter pads home winemakers use are made from the same material than the pro stuff is made out of just obviously a smaller filter.

I did a quick search of both small scale and large scale filters, and there are numerous types of pads in different styles (plate, pod, etc.). Plus home winemakers are using home water filters. The large and small plate filters are probably the same material, but there's no way to determine how similar the others are.

You can definitely taste if a wine has been filtered it tends to strip out tannins and sometimes wines taste thinner. Centrifuges are used exclusively to remove alcohol in some wines.

I was part owner of a Buon Vino plate filter and did filtering for a couple of years. I recall being unhappy with fine filtering at least one red, and did only coarse the following year. After that I stopped, as I didn't see a value.

Taste testing filtered and unfiltered versions of a wine side-by-side is a good experiment.

I wondered how alcohol was removed from wine, but never cared enough to research it. Hmmm ... if the local brewery uses it to clear their beer, is there a reason it can't be used to clear a wine? I assume it takes more RPMs to remove the alcohol, so I'd expect using less will clear the wine without removing the alcohol.

 

[Nebbiolo020]

Sediment drops with time -- the vast majority of the time. Sediment does matter for commercial wineries. If I was running a commercial winery, I'd use at least a coarse filter to ensure the wines don't drop sediment in the bottle.

That said, your point is a good one -- if the wine has to be filtered, it needs something else done, even if it's just more time in bulk.


I did a quick search of both small scale and large scale filters, and there are numerous types of pads in different styles (plate, pod, etc.). Plus home winemakers are using home water filters. The large and small plate filters are probably the same material, but there's no way to determine how similar the others are.


I was part owner of a Buon Vino plate filter and did filtering for a couple of years. I recall being unhappy with fine filtering at least one red, and did only coarse the following year. After that I stopped, as I didn't see a value.

Taste testing filtered and unfiltered versions of a wine side-by-side is a good experiment.

I wondered how alcohol was removed from wine, but never cared enough to research it. Hmmm ... if the local brewery uses it to clear their beer, is there a reason it can't be used to clear a wine? I assume it takes more RPMs to remove the alcohol, so I'd expect using less will clear the wine without removing the alcohol.

I do run a commercial winery and we don’t filter because all the sediment drops out over the year of aging and we rack several times.

I do not know if you could clear a wine with a centrifuge I just know that they remove alcohol with them, I would also be concerned with excessive oxidation with running a centrifuge long enough to remove sediment.

 

[winemaker81]

I do run a commercial winery and we don’t filter because all the sediment drops out over the year of aging and we rack several times.

I do not know if you could clear a wine with a centrifuge I just know that they remove alcohol with them, I would also be concerned with excessive oxidation with running a centrifuge long enough to remove sediment.

I agree with most grape wines clear with time, and most problems are solvable, e.g., pectin haze, protein haze, etc. But I've had a couple that refused to clear without fining and I did not determine the cause. The final result was pleasing, but they were a puzzle. And I've had a few that spent a year in bulk aging yet dropped some sediment in the bottle after another 6-12 months.

There is the issue of time. In my misspent youth I did a lot of winery hopping through the NY Finger Lakes and got to know a lot of the winery owners, who were either the head winemaker or directly involved. Time and cashflow were important factors for them, so they were always looking at ways to get some of the last fall's wines on the market sooner than later. These were all startups, 1 to 5 years in production when I started my fun, so cashflow was critical.

I learned a lot wandering through the wineries as the winemakers explained and demonstrated things. I tasted a LOT of wines in production. Fun times!

30+ years later, the wineries that succeeded in managing their cash flow and adapting to changing times are still going strong, although their wines have changed. They all do a wide variety of wines, including a lot of lightly sweet to sweet reds and whites, and all have a strong showing of more premium reds and whites.

Some years back I made my first trip to the Finger Likes in 20+ years, and when I arrived at many wineries the place was unrecognizable -- the original buildings were gone and new, very nice buildings replaced them. The original folks I knew were all retired or passed on, but the wineries are still going strong.

The wineries that didn't mange the cash flow? Well, their vineyards are now owned by others.

This may explain my POV on the subject.

 

[Nebbiolo020]

I agree with most grape wines clear with time, and most problems are solvable, e.g., pectin haze, protein haze, etc. But I've had a couple that refused to clear without fining and I did not determine the cause. The final result was pleasing, but they were a puzzle. And I've had a few that spent a year in bulk aging yet dropped some sediment in the bottle after another 6-12 months.

There is the issue of time. In my misspent youth I did a lot of winery hopping through the NY Finger Lakes and got to know a lot of the winery owners, who were either the head winemaker or directly involved. Time and cashflow were important factors for them, so they were always looking at ways to get some of the last fall's wines on the market sooner than later. These were all startups, 1 to 5 years in production when I started my fun, so cashflow was critical.

I learned a lot wandering through the wineries as the winemakers explained and demonstrated things. I tasted a LOT of wines in production. Fun times!

30+ years later, the wineries that succeeded in managing their cash flow and adapting to changing times are still going strong, although their wines have changed. They all do a wide variety of wines, including a lot of lightly sweet to sweet reds and whites, and all have a strong showing of more premium reds and whites.

Some years back I made my first trip to the Finger Likes in 20+ years, and when I arrived at many wineries the place was unrecognizable -- the original buildings were gone and new, very nice buildings replaced them. The original folks I knew were all retired or passed on, but the wineries are still going strong.

The wineries that didn't mange the cash flow? Well, their vineyards are now owned by others.

This may explain my POV on the subject.

The absolute only thing I add to any commercial wine if I think I need it because I’m pretty hands off on additives is Color Pro which does help with haze along with breaking down skins and extracting more stable color compounds.

I go for minimal intervention and as natural as possible these days so my customers know and expect some small amounts of sediment in the bottle, we work with fruit from one of 2 vineyards that is certified Organic and Biodynamic so we champion that and I apply the ridge method of basically just sulfites in small doses to control oxidation and microbes and that’s it been moving towards 100% native fermentations because the wines have came out better consistently than the wines made with single strains of commercial yeast.

For us cash flow is important but we have enough in the bank to make it for several years without profit if something happened, we are lucky in that aspect. I do want my wines in the hands of consumers as early as is realistically possible but I want them to be ready to drink.

We only produce high end red wines from the best vineyards we buy all our fruit under contract so we can buy from famous vineyards or sites that I select myself in person after visiting them. We do not have a market for sweet wines or etc we are planning in 4-5 years to add white wines but right now we know we would have more difficulties selling white wines than reds so it’s not a priority. We did make a deal with a local supplier to potentially do some local fruit wines.

 

[winemaker81]

For us cash flow is important but we have enough in the bank to make it for several years without profit if something happened, we are lucky in that aspect.

Congratulations! Cash flow is a real killer for new businesses. I'm happy for you that you're ok in that respect.

Upstate NY is not known as a go-to winemaking area, so the wineries typically rely on local sales and tourism for business. At least a few wineries in NC regularly host live music and food trucks, and make themselves into a party venue. Yes, that's a completely different business model.

We've managed to take a hard left turn away from K&C testing, haven't we?

 

[Nebbiolo020]

Congratulations! Cash flow is a real killer for new businesses. I'm happy for you that you're ok in that respect.

Upstate NY is not known as a go-to winemaking area, so the wineries typically rely on local sales and tourism for business. At least a few wineries in NC regularly host live music and food trucks, and make themselves into a party venue. Yes, that's a completely different business model.

We've managed to take a hard left turn away from K&C testing, haven't we?

Well it happens lol I tend to go off topic a lot lol.

We are in a major city but we are the only winery in the entire city so we’re milking the market being the pioneering winery. The state has a few wineries but nothing crazy.