Kieselsol & Chitosan

[wineview]

After adding Chitosan how long do most of you wait to add Kieselsol? I've read opinions from 45 minutes to two days.

 

[cmason1957]

All of those answers are correct. As well as 5 minutes or less. In other words, I'm not for sure that it matters all that much.

 

[winemaker81]

IIRC, FWK says to add them together. (just muddying the water further)

My current method allows for a brief interval (1 to 5 minutes) between adding the kieselsol and chitosan.

Exactly when I add both depends on the situation, which varies by the number of containers I'm racking from, and the number of containers that will hold the wine during aging.

In a typical situation I rack the wine off the sediment into another primary. Stir for 1 minute, changing direction once, to degas. Add the kieselsol and stir for 1 minute. Let rest a minute or 5 (doesn't seem to matter how long), add the chitosan and stir again for 1 minute. Rack into the secondary container.

IME any brief interval between the additions works. Supposedly adding them together makes no difference; however my method works for me and there's no advantage (such as saving labor) that gives me reason to change.

 

[wineview]

Thanks to all....

 

[szap]

Current winexpert directions are to add sulfite/sorbate and stir to degas then add kieselsol and not add chitosan until the next day.

 

[bstnh1]

IIRC, FWK says to add them together. (just muddying the water further)

My current method allows for a brief interval (1 to 5 minutes) between adding the kieselsol and chitosan.

Exactly when I add both depends on the situation, which varies by the number of containers I'm racking from, and the number of containers that will hold the wine during aging.

In a typical situation I rack the wine off the sediment into another primary. Stir for 1 minute, changing direction once, to degas. Add the kieselsol and stir for 1 minute. Let rest a minute or 5 (doesn't seem to matter how long), add the chitosan and stir again for 1 minute. Rack into the secondary container.

IME any brief interval between the additions works. Supposedly adding them together makes no difference; however my method works for me and there's no advantage (such as saving labor) that gives me reason to change.

Matteo has changed the procedure for adding kieselsol and chitosan. The last kit I did said to add kieselsol first then wait at least one hour, but not longer than 24 hours, to add the chitosan .

 

[wineview]

Current winexpert directions are to add sulfite/sorbate and stir to degas then add kieselsol and not add chitosan until the next day.

Yep. The directions are all over the place depending where you look.

 

[winemaker81]

Matteo has changed the procedure for adding kieselsol and chitosan. The last kit I did said to add kieselsol first then wait at least one hour, but not longer than 24 hours, to add the chitosan.

I haven't started a kit in 9 months, and I may not have looked at the instructions all that closely at that time. I'm wondering when the instructions change.

Matteo changing the instructions is actually a good thing, as it indicates he and his staff are still thinking about things and not riding inertia.

Yep. The directions are all over the place depending where you look.

In the past, all instructions said to add the kieselsol first, and the chitosan after a delay of between 1 minute and 24 hours. With FWK changing their instructions to include a delay between additions, and based upon my own experiences, it appears than adding the kieselsol first and then chitosan after a delay of any span, will work.

Your call on how much delay you want between additions.

 

[szap]

I haven't started a kit in 9 months, and I may not have looked at the instructions all that closely at that time. I'm wondering when the instructions change.

Matteo changing the instructions is actually a good thing, as it indicates he and his staff are still thinking about things and not riding inertia.


In the past, all instructions said to add the kieselsol first, and the chitosan after a delay of between 1 minute and 24 hours. With FWK changing their instructions to include a delay between additions, and based upon my own experiences, it appears than adding the kieselsol first and then chitosan after a delay of any span, will work.

Your call on how much delay you want between additions.

I did a winexpert LE kit in December and it still had the kieselsol first and chitosan the next day

 

[winemaker81]

I did a winexpert LE kit in December and it still had the kieselsol first and chitosan the next day

Last time I made WE (couple years ago) that was the case.

IIRC, 10-15 years ago their instructions said 1 minute, although it's possible I'm remembering RJS instructions.

 

[QuiQuog]

I think all answers are correct is correct. I've reversed the order on accident and it still cleared beautifully.

 

[Chuck Rairdan]

Since chitosan goes after negatively charged particles and kieselsol goes after positives, theoretically they shouldn't interfere with each other. On the other hand, wine contains various compounds and I suppose there could potentially be some cross interactions if both are added at the same time. Once it's mixed in, probably doesn't take long for the kieselsol to run its course and then chitosan to cover the remaining charged particles. I usually let the resulting "snow" settle for about 48 hours before racking.

 

[wineview]

Matteo has changed the procedure for adding kieselsol and chitosan. The last kit I did said to add kieselsol first then wait at least one hour, but not longer than 24 hours, to add the chitosan .

Interesting. I did a kit yesterday and the directions were to dump both at the same time.

 

[wineview]

I think all answers are correct is correct. I've reversed the order on accident and it still cleared beautifully.

It will still clear but apparently not as quickly.

 

[wineview]

I did a winexpert LE kit in December and it still had the kieselsol first and chitosan the next day

I’ve seen a lot of next day directions.

 

[winemaker81]

Interesting. I did a kit yesterday and the directions were to dump both at the same time.

FWK has several direction booklets -- it's likely some have been updated while others not. Or you got an old one, depending on what is in stock at LP.

It will still clear but apparently not as quickly.

There appears to be some interaction where adding kieselsol first works better. I searched for answers, but found nothing. One reference said yeast and proteins are positively charged, so kieselsol works on them. I'm wondering if this provides some type of nucleation site for the negatively charged particles that the positively charged chitosan affects.

Muddying the waters further, this site says to add chitosan first:

https://www.winemakersdepot.com/Fining-Agents-Cheat-Sheet-W148.aspx

I usually let the resulting "snow" settle for about 48 hours before racking.

While the wine normally clears amazingly fast, I've noticed the lees compacts with time, e.g., most sediment drops within 24 hours, but the lees level is noticeably lower at 7 days. I wait longer to rack as I lose less volume to the lees. YMMV

 

[sour_grapes]

Since chitosan goes after negatively charged particles and kieselsol goes after positives, theoretically they shouldn't interfere with each other. On the other hand, wine contains various compounds and I suppose there could potentially be some cross interactions if both are added at the same time. Once it's mixed in, probably doesn't take long for the kieselsol to run its course and then chitosan to cover the remaining charged particles. I usually let the resulting "snow" settle for about 48 hours before racking.

I think the concern is that they could "go after" each other. That is, if one is positively charged, and the other is negatively charged, then they could bind to each other. However, I do not know if that is actually true, that is, I do not know if they will bind to each other. I phrased the "positively charged" deliberately simplistically, instead of your better "go after" phraseology.

 

[wineview]

FWK has several direction booklets -- it's likely some have been updated while others not. Or you got an old one, depending on what is in stock at LP.


There appears to be some interaction where adding kieselsol first works better. I searched for answers, but found nothing. One reference said yeast and proteins are positively charged, so kieselsol works on them. I'm wondering if this provides some type of nucleation site for the negatively charged particles that the positively charged chitosan affects.

Muddying the waters further, this site says to add chitosan first:

https://www.winemakersdepot.com/Fining-Agents-Cheat-Sheet-W148.aspx

While the wine normally clears amazingly fast, I've noticed the lees compacts with time, e.g., most sediment drops within 24 hours, but the lees level is noticeably lower at 7 days. I wait longer to rack as I lose less volume to the lees.

I rack off primary and don’t do it again for three months.

 

[Bill Pet]

FWK has several direction booklets -- it's likely some have been updated while others not. Or you got an old one, depending on what is in stock at LP.


There appears to be some interaction where adding kieselsol first works better. I searched for answers, but found nothing. One reference said yeast and proteins are positively charged, so kieselsol works on them. I'm wondering if this provides some type of nucleation site for the negatively charged particles that the positively charged chitosan affects.

Muddying the waters further, this site says to add chitosan first:

https://www.winemakersdepot.com/Fining-Agents-Cheat-Sheet-W148.aspx

While the wine normally clears amazingly fast, I've noticed the lees compacts with time, e.g., most sediment drops within 24 hours, but the lees level is noticeably lower at 7 days. I wait longer to rack as I lose less volume to the lees. YMMV

This exactly my experience. For the kits I make the lees will often compact from a half inch to maybe 1/8 inch in a week or so.

 

[Chuck Rairdan]

I think the concern is that they could "go after" each other. That is, if one is positively charged, and the other is negatively charged, then they could bind to each other. However, I do not know if that is actually true, that is, I do not know if they will bind to each other. I phrased the "positively charged" deliberately simplistically, instead of your better "go after" phraseology.

I think I recall, i.e., hazy memory, reading somewhere that the sequence of kieselsol first followed by chitosan is that there can be residual polarities with the bound particles that can lead to a flocculating effect for faster settling of lees.