Lemongrass mint wine acid question

[Stressbaby]

Having an abundance of both lemongrass and mint, I decided to try this recipe: http://www.winepress.us/forums/index.php?/topic/26606-lemongrass-mint-wine/
It tweaked the acid. Initially I used 2t acid blend per gallon. Then I tested the must and got pH of 3.38 and TA of 0.45%. Because the TA seemed low I bumped it up to 3t/gallon and ended up with pH 3.21 and TA of 0.55%.
I've read a couple of Turocks posts where he suggested checking ONLY the pH and forgetting about the TA.
My questions: do you agree with Turocks advice? (Turocks you are welcome to chime in again here). Does that advice apply to flower and herb-style wines as well as fruit wines? Should I think about any modifications for this wine now? For example, do I need to get some mint before it bolts and start a batch with little acid for purposes of blending?

 

[Turock]

I'm not experienced in what you're working with and I only like giving advice when I'm sure of what I'm saying to people. I don't want to lead anyone astray.

But my feeling is that you might be in a real good range with a PH of 3.2 because this might bring out the flavor. TA just isn't an issue on fruit--and even cold weather grapes. The only time we might look at TA is on high brix, warm weather grapes. I don't think you need to consider it on this wine.

How does it taste to you?

 

[Stressbaby]

Turock, thanks for the reply.

The wine is still bubbling slowly in the secondary. Keep in mind I just started the wine 5/25/2013. At this point it is definitely sharp, but I don't often taste my wines at 2 weeks so I'm not sure I have a good comparison.

To be safe, would it be reasonable to make a 1 gallon batch without added acid, just for the purposes of blending? The mint won't be in season for too much longer.

 

[Turock]

Oh----I think that's an excellent idea. Then you can blend to get it to where you want it. That's real good analytical thinking.

How much are you making in the batch with the acid? If it's 3 gallons or so, you might want to make MORE than 1 gallon of the higher PH wine. It can take ALOT of wine to balance the PH when blending.

 

[Stressbaby]

Actually I have 5 gallons of the wine with the acid...maybe 2 gallons...

 

[Turock]

Oh wow--5 gallons. For some reason, my spidey sense says you should try to make 3 gallons more.

 

[Stressbaby]

I only have enough lemongrass for 2 gallons, so 2 gallons it will have to be. I'm putting this together today, so I'll take some pH readings and post back.

 

[Stressbaby]

Ay ay ay, it has been >30 years since AP chemistry...but you are right, Turock, it takes a LOT of blended wine to make a dent in the pH! Posting here for my own reference and to publicly thank Turock and my engineer son for the link.

My new 2+ gal batch is at pH 4.15. Let's call it 8 liters. The acidic batch is 3.21, let's call it 19 liters.

Using this calculator for the inverse log the H+ ion concentrations are 0.00007079M and 0.00061659M respectively.

Multiply by liters to get H+ in moles, 0.000566 mol and 0.011715 mol respectively. Add together to get 0.012281 mol.

Divide by 27 liters to get concentration of 0.000455M. Plug that back into the log calculator and we get a pH of the blended wines of 3.34.

Hard to believe it won't even get to 3.4!

Using the same equations, I could pull 3 gallons of the acidic wine (11.4 liters), mix with the new batch, and have 2 gallons left at 3.21 and the blended 5 gallon batch at 3.41...that is probably what I will do, just to experiment a little bit.

 

[Turock]

That sounds like you might be in a good range now. I remember that one person in our wine club made a mint wine and blended it with Reisling. It was really good. But I remember it had no acid hit to it and that was most pleasant. So a 3.4 might be quite good.

I'm glad I could help you---even tho I've never worked with mint and didn't have much of a clue. Sometimes, it helps to have someone as a sounding board so you can talk your way to your own solution. Hope this will turn out to be good. You'll have to let us know. But in any case, I'll bet you'll be real good at mint wine in the future. Having problems leads you to understanding how to do it better the next time.

 

[Stressbaby]

Moved the new 2 gallon batch without acid to the secondary today at 1.014.

Does it make any difference when the blending is done?

 

[Turock]

Well, typically you wait until both wines are cleared, stable, and aged before blending. You need both of them aged up to where their flavors are at their peak so you know how much of each to blend together.

But this is somewhat different. How long does it take for this kind of wine to come to it's full flavor? I should think it would need to AT LEAST be degassed so the CO2 doesn't interfere. I've never made a wine like this so I'm just throwing a bone your way.

 

[Stressbaby]

That answer makes perfect sense and is good enough for me. They stay separate for now. Thanks again, man!

 

[Stressbaby]

Blended batch looking good at pH of 3.4. What is interesting is the changes in the pH of each batch. The acidic batch started at 3.21 and after fermentation was at 3.26. The batch without acid started at 4.15 and ended at 3.54.

It is almost as if fermentation moved both batches the opposite way, toward the target pH.

 

[Turock]

PH usually moves up after fermentation. The less acid batch really came down,tho. Pretty crazy. I wonder if it's high enough to have much affect on the acid batch.

Are you going to sweeten this? I should think you would. How are you going to use this? Drink it straight or blend with a white wine? This might be really good in some iced tea.

 

[Stressbaby]

The acid batch came from 3.26 to 3.4 so it helped a little bit.
This wine will need to be backsweetened. I'm just getting ready to bottle a Lemongrass Ginger wine and it needed a little backsweetening as well. I didn't plan to blend with a white wine, but I like the tea idea, thanks!

 

[Turock]

Oh, I see what you're saying now. Well, I should think the 3.4 should be OK--did you taste it? How is the acid? I like the iced tea idea too!! Too bad you're far away from me or I'd be over to give it a try!!!

 

[Stressbaby]

I think the acid is fine at 3.4. I'll still get 2 gal of the more acidic 3.26 as well. Taste is pretty good, still a little "yeasty" but smells of lemon and tastes more of the mint. It may need something to round it out later, we'll see...