Making Wine from Grocery Store Table Grapes

[mpdeem]

My first forays into winemaking from grapes is limited to seedless table grapes from my local grocery store. Varieties available are Flame Grape, Kermit the Frog Green Grapes, and Black-Dark Burgundy skinned grapes (w/ dark burgundy flesh).

Overall results and notes:

-Grape must brix lower than typical wine grapes, isially requiring addition of sugar/simple syrup. PH om 3.74-3.40 depnding on variety.
-Fermentation - can we say super short, lasting maybe 2-4 days no skin contact. With skin contact can extend to 5-7 especially with black variety grapes and rehydrated black raisins.

-Young Wine from green or flame grapes no skin contact when finished fermenting and dry has a pink grapefruit taste. Reminds me of a Mimosa coktail made with cheap Champagne or still white wine (depending on type of yeast used). More complex when fermentation is halted a day early when some residual sugar remains. PH tends to be on lower side.

-Young Wine with skin contact, made from black grapes with longer maceration as a red wine. Inlcuides addition of rehydrated black raisins. Much more complex probably my favorite thus far. Rehydrated raisins make the difference. Got the idea on this forum from the wonderful Tweaking Cheap Wine Kits thread where raisins were added to enhance flavors.
Having said this, like the no skin contact version, there is a similar grapefuit note albeit not as dominant. Again my preferance tastewise is one day prior to end of fermentation. PH is not as low as no skin contact version. Have had success with little backsweetening.

Since ordering wine grapes (even as frozen must) is not in my budget at the moment, I mist content myself with grocery store table grape experiments for now. I do have a Pinot Grigio wine kit in progress - which provides quite a contrast thus far in results and challenges like much longer fermentation almost stalled because I forgot to water down juice concentrate-duh. Comparing to the wine kit I realize that like all things, good proper ingrediants is most of the battle. Thus I have adjusted my expectations and am just using table grapes until I am can afford to order some frozen wine grape must.

Would love to hear from others who have made wine from grocery store grapes. Tips tricks or 'what not to do' tips appreciated/ This is just for fun - to gain expierence and try different techniques. The one good thing about humblegrocery stpre grapes is one is more inclined to get adventerous. No pressure not to mess up. Having said that with the price of groceries these days, one can still end up spending a chunk of change....so not sure how many more grocery store grape experiments I will do in the future.
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[Rice_Guy]

I have done a big red wine with mulberry. What is missing between fruit x and your target wine? acid? color? tannin? sugar? aromatics? Looking at that with the mulberry I loaded it up with the maximum recommended grape tannin and then enough acid to drop the pH.

Basically grape wine is an acidic solution near pH 3.5 which has enough sugar to make 11 or even 14% alcohol. Table grapes are short on tannin and maybe color.

 

[winechef]

I think a nice country fruit wine would be better flavor than table grapes. they lack character. but mullbery, blueberry, or a mixed blueberry BlackBerry strawberry raspberry wine would definitely be better.

add extra tannins and use good oak chunks and you'll have a much better wine.

but if grapes are your only passion I'd save up. to. make a batch with high quality grapes

 

[BPL]

Using grocery store grapes and fruit is a great way to ease into fine tuning methods. Yes, I started out that way as well. I made some pretty good table wine in the process. I quickly found out that not all table grapes >should be< destined for wine.

I realized there was a cost versus quantity consideration. Considering ~10 lbs of grapes will net 1 gallon of finished wine is a starting point example. If the fruit is $2/lb, it cost ~$20 for the juice. Since table grapes are low in sugar, the gravity needs to be "fixed". So the cost of juice + sugar for the finished wine goes up to ~$25 to $30 per gallon. At $30/gallon, each bottle (5 bottles) costs roughly $5 to $6. The cost per bottle is variable, depending sourced fruit costs. The cost increases is for any additives.

Comparing the juice/sugar cost to the average cost of a 6 gallon Wine Expert kit of ~$90 where the result is 30 bottles. No additives or extra sugar is needed. Everything comes in the kit. The cost per bottle becomes ~$3/bottle, roughly 1/2 of the fresh store bought grapes. The other benefit of using a kit is the labor is reduced from juicing the grapes.

I'll still make wine from store bought fruit, but my "break point" of making it worthwhile is finding free fruit or finding sales at ~$1.50/lb or less.

In the long run, I've found that my experience gained from using table grapes accelerated the experiences needed to take a higher end kit and turn it into an exceptional wine. "Exceptional" meaning, better than most all purchased wines from a liquor store and I can shape the tastes to my liking.

 

[mpdeem]

I think a nice country fruit wine would be better flavor than table grapes. they lack character. but mullbery, blueberry, or a mixed blueberry BlackBerry strawberry raspberry wine would definitely be better.

add extra tannins and use good oak chunks and you'll have a much better wine.

but if grapes are your only passion I'd save up. to. make a batch with high quality grapes

Thanks for the reply. I think you are right in that country fruit based wines will probably be more comlex and enjoyable grocery sore table grapes. I have made blackberry wine a few times. The best batch was of course from my home grown blackberries -a variety breed by a friend of mine that is qute complex and tastes good even when underipe. My latest batches from witer grocery store blackberries have required some tweaking to add complexity and raise brix - including adding raisins -got the idea from the wonderful Tweaking Cheap Wine Kits thread.

Overally working with fruits as opposed to wine kit conentrates has given me some ideas with regard to crushing and pressing set up as well as the important of using fruit bags (for country fruit wines). Has also given me ample inspiration to ways to add complexity and balance PH depending on fruit.

 

[mpdeem]

In the long run, I've found that my experience gained from using table grapes accelerated the experiences needed to take a higher end kit and turn it into an exceptional wine. "Exceptional" meaning, better than most all purchased wines from a liquor store and I can shape the tastes to my liking.

Thank you for sharing your expierences and conclusions - they mirror mine almost to a T.

Like you I found that by the time I added up the cost of table grapes (no they aint cheap these days), the extra supplies to tweak/add complexity (raisinsm extra sugar), the money spent was almost the same as a low-mid level wine kit. In fact my mom bought me a Fontana Pinot Grigio around the same time I started my grocery store grape expierments....and literally my costs about the same as the wine kit. The wine from the kit turned out a lot better despite minimal tweaking on my part. It also aged beter, clearing and gaining complexity within 1-2 months whereas my grocery grapes did not really improve with aging.

My favorite grocery store cuvees where those made from green Kermit the Frog Grapes - although Flame grapes were also decent. Despite noremally prefering dry wine, my favorite store versions were just off dry- achieved by stalling ferentation at 2-3 brix. The residual fructose added the impression of complexity whereas the dry versions seemed a little more simplistic yet muddled profiled dominated by a grapefruit note.

Working in tiny micro batches I guessed the amount of yeast...probably adding too much given the amount of lies that accumulated even after racking. This might have cotributed to the muddled quality of the wines.

Overall I learned a lot. Were it not for inflated pricing, I might conintue to expierment with store grapes if only to gain more expierence. Having said that I have a few more clusters of grapes so will probably make one more micro batch, using less yeast of a different variety (thinking of Renaissance Fresco instead of EC1118).

Would love to hear your expierences in tweaking high end wie kits. Will check the Kit Wine Section in the even you have post there. I was really happy with my Fontana Pinot Grigio that I ordered another

 

[BPL]

Thanks for the reply. I think you are right in that country fruit based wines will probably be more comlex and enjoyable grocery sore table grapes. I have made blackberry wine a few times. The best batch was of course from my home grown blackberries -a variety breed by a friend of mine that is qute complex and tastes good even when underipe. My latest batches from witer grocery store blackberries have required some tweaking to add complexity and raise brix - including adding raisins -got the idea from the wonderful Tweaking Cheap Wine Kits thread.

Overally working with fruits as opposed to wine kit conentrates has given me some ideas with regard to crushing and pressing set up as well as the important of using fruit bags (for country fruit wines). Has also given me ample inspiration to ways to add complexity and balance PH depending on fruit.

With all possible respect to you and @winechef the lowly table grape "can" pack a punch for flavors. Enhancing the flavors of all wines starts with the understanding how those flavors come into being and where they come from. Good wines just don't happen. They can be crafted just like a painter creates a piece of art!

I totally agree that varietal grapes will have more flavor than table grapes. However, the same levels of flavor can come from table grapes as, peaches, pears, blackberries, etc.

How to achieve that level of flavor gets pretty intense. If you follow the science and the data involved, tweak the additives and methods, the intense flavors will follow.

Quick examples are: *** using yeasts that promote ester production and enhance mouthfeel- yeasts like D47, 71B, K1-V1116, and D254 are worlds apart from EC1118. *** Enhancing the flavors with hydration nutrients and organic fermentation nutrients, are perfect matches to fermenting about 5*F to 8*F above, >the yeast's lowest temperature specification<. *** One of the overlooked areas of creating wines with intense flavors is tightly controlling fermenting temperatures for maximum flavor retention. *** Of course, acid management is one of the key ingredients for country wines. Getting acidity right just makes everything else "pop"!

Tips tricks or 'what not to do' tips appreciated/ This is just for fun - to gain expierence and try different techniques.

So, my suggestion(s) is to not to totally give up on table grapes, but use them >in addition< to the other fruits for country wines. The reasons are table grapes are much easier to clear since they are "grapes". The pectin issues brought on with some of the fruits can cause some really unexpected results. Not having to deal with clearing just enhances the goals of studying methods to promoting flavors.

The above examples/topics are just the tip if the iceberg.

Good luck going forward,

Barry

 

[winemaker81]

Would love to hear your expierences in tweaking high end wie kits. Will check the Kit Wine Section in the even you have post there. I was really happy with my Fontana Pinot Grigio that I ordered another

The things I do apply to pretty much any kit, and may apply to grape and country wines as well.

• Red kit: if the kit includes fermentation oak, use it. If it doesn't include fermentation oak, add 1 oz chips or shreds. Fermentation oak stabilizes color, removes vegetative flavors, improve body & mouthfeel, and acts as "sacrificial" oak (preserves natural grape tannin, which is preferred).
• White kit: Add 1/8 to 1/4 tsp powdered tannin per 4 liters, which improves body & mouthfeel. I do this for fruit wines as well.
• Red kit: for a richer red, add 1 or 2 skin packs, which beefs up the concentrate. Alternately, years back the high end kits included 8 oz dried elderberries.
• Do not bottle on kit schedule. Bulk age at least 3 months after the wine clears (drops most sediment in 2 weeks post-fermentation), and for heavy reds, 5 to 8 months is better.
• Skip the kieselsol & chitosan unless the wine does not clear.
• Red kit: if the kit includes aging oak, add it after the wine clears. Cubes are typically expended after 3 month. Just leave them in the wine, no need to rack off them. For kits, 1 to 1.5 oz oak is probably sufficient.
• Unless backsweetening, don't use the finishing pack (sorbate + K-meta). Add your own K-meta. The sorbate is unnecessary.
• Add glycerin prior to bottling, which smooths rough edges and adds body & mouthfeel.

 

[mainshipfred]

Don't rule out juice buckets when the season comes. It appears you have the ability to measure pH and sugar though the juice buckets are supposed to be balanced. Depending your location they should cost around $60 to $70 per 6 gallon bucket. A few more additives are required but you are getting fresh juice rather than a concentrate from a kit. Still no match to a wine grape be it a vinifera or a hybrid though. Additionally, and again depending on if you can get them, a 36 lb lug of fresh grapes from Lodi can cost a little as $40 per lug.