Malolactic Fermentation Help

[cmason1957]

Follow up to my previous. Here are my Feb and March Chromotography charts. It looks like I still have Malo. Forgive me my first time testing. Is this what I should expect? The Cab is the one I accidentally added some Kmeta, but the Syrah should be good. The Syrah is in my temp controlled freezer at 67F, the Cab is at 63-64F. Any suggestions?

You might warm it up a bit. Generally at our above 70 F is where you want to be. Enoferm mlb can handle lower temps.

 

[Mcjeff]

Follow up to my previous. Here are my Feb and March Chromotography charts. It looks like I still have Malo. Forgive me my first time testing. Is this what I should expect? The Cab is the one I accidentally added some Kmeta, but the Syrah should be good. The Syrah is in my temp controlled freezer at 67F, the Cab is at 63-64F. Any suggestions? Re posting with picture. Newer one on the left.

 

[mainshipfred]

What bacteria did you use,, it doesn't appear to be much of a change with either one and from what I gather it's now been 4 months. Also some yeasts have the ability to convert malic to lactic and that could be where the lactic is coming from.

 

[cmason1957]

View attachment 59478

Feb is on the right and March is on the right (just saying that to make certain). You are progressing nicely, let it go. Don't worry so much about not having sulfites to protect. It is in something, well topped up. It is fine. Are you stirring gently every so often, I think that helps, but haven't run a side by side to prove it. You got another two months to go, at least. No worries.

 

[mainshipfred]

Feb is on the right and March is on the right (just saying that to make certain). You are progressing nicely, let it go. Don't worry so much about not having sulfites to protect. It is in something, well topped up. It is fine. Are you stirring gently every so often, I think that helps, but haven't run a side by side to prove it. You got another two months to go, at least. No worries.

Craig, if you go back to his original post you will see he started sometime around November 25 which is 4 months ago. To me there is not much change just a difference in brightness of the dots.

 

[cmason1957]

Craig, if you go back to his original post you will see he started sometime around November 25 which is 4 months ago. To me there is not much change just a difference in brightness of the dots.

Yes, I saw that 4 months and maybe it is just a brightness in dots. Only way to be for sure is to measure the amount of malic acid left. ( those little test strips are at least okay for detecting is the amount changing) I guess my point is, don't worry, let it go at least another month or two, before deciding it is hopelessly stuck and giving up, then dosing with something to inhibit it going any further.

 

[Johnd]

IMHO, you've got nothing going on. Wonder if your juice buckets has some SO2 added at crush / press or prior to shipping to you. Did you add any before fermentation? I had similar results (or lack of) with my first two grape wines, one was frozen must buckets from Brehm, second was grapes from Chile which were crushed and frozen, both sequentially innoculated, I added no SO2 at any time. Didn't have my Vinmetrica then, so I wasn't able to test for SO2 that may have been added during processing. Since then, I've been adding MLB at day 2 or so and haven't had a failure since.

I didn't see it above anywhere, what sort of pH's and BRIX / ABV did you have with the must / finished wine. As you know, MLB is sensitive to a number of factors, temps, pH, SO2 and ABV. If any one is a bit out of range, it's usually OK, but if two are on the edge, you can have issues. For instance, if the upper range of your MLB's ABV is 14%, and you're at 14%, and it's SO2 tolerance is 50ppm, and you're at 50 ppm, I doubt you'll get anywhere. It's not just free SO2 that makes a difference either, bound SO2 can have the same stifling effect.

 

[stickman]

One thing I noticed on the chromatogram that I don't see very often is that the Syrah has a citric acid spot, it's the spot just under the malic spot, it could be natural citric, but it may indicate the pails were acid adjusted. Acid adjustment alone doesn't mean there should be a problem with ML, but if they adjusted acid with acid blend containing malic, the malic spot may never go away totally. As others noted above, if SO2 was added during packaging it can also cause ML problems.

 

[Mcjeff]

Thanks for the comments Sorry I didn’t reply earlier. A little busy here lately. I’m thinking it was SO2 issues. I used Kmeta to sanitize. Maybe to much residual left. Also I know the Cabernet I accidentally added some when I racked. Both were buckets of juice. PH was 3.6 using a test strip as I don’t have a meter yet. Starting SG was 1.090 for the Syrah, the cab had already started to ferment when I opened it to add the yeast. so I don’t think the % alcohol is too high. Malo was WLP675. I raised the temperature for the Syrah to 74 to see if it was maybe still too cool. Suggestions- Re inoculate or too late and just accept it?

 

[Johnd]

Thanks for the comments Sorry I didn’t reply earlier. A little busy here lately. I’m thinking it was SO2 issues. I used Kmeta to sanitize. Maybe to much residual left. Also I know the Cabernet I accidentally added some when I racked. Both were buckets of juice. PH was 3.6 using a test strip as I don’t have a meter yet. Starting SG was 1.090 for the Syrah, the cab had already started to ferment when I opened it to add the yeast. so I don’t think the % alcohol is too high. Malo was WLP675. I raised the temperature for the Syrah to 74 to see if it was maybe still too cool. Suggestions- Re inoculate or too late and just accept it?

Lots of folks have trouble with those liquid cultures. Before it’s too long to wait without sulfite, I’d give VP-41, or CH16 a try.

 

[mainshipfred]

With only a 10 ppm So2 tolerance I don't know why White Labs and their vendors even try to market this for wine. Then you read their pH tolerance and first it says optimal is 4.0 but will handle 3.3 in reds and 3.1 in whites then go on to say it has a high tolerance for low pH.

What are the general instructions for Maloactic Cultures?
Wait for fermentation to reach a gravity of approximately 5 Brix, towards the end of fermentation. Warm culture to room temperature and inoculate must. If one inoculates at the beginning of fermentation the yeast and WLP675 could compete for resources. As a result this may cause a stuck fermentation. To determine the completion of the MLF malolactic fermentation, monitor the depletion of malic acid. The accepted value for a completed MLF is around 30ppm.
Inoculations larger than 59 gallons: To inoculate larger volumes, we recommend inoculating with a larger culture.
Optimal pH: The optimal pH is approximately 4.0, but WLP675 will handle a pH of 3.3 in red wines and 3.1 in white.
Additional Information: WLP675 has a high tolerance to low pH (3.0), low temperature environments (down to 55˚F or 12˚C), and high alcohol percentages (up to 15% alcohol by volume). SO2 :The SO2 tolerance = 10ppm.

 

[cmason1957]

With only a 10 ppm So2 tolerance I don't know why White Labs .... :The SO2 tolerance = 10ppm.

And don't forget that is a TOTAL SO2 number, not just the free amount. In other words, don't add any SO2 at the start of fermentation, if you plan to use WLP675. I'm with you Fred, why do they even make it and why would a wine shop ever recommend that you buy it??

 

[Johnd]

Well, I suppose that I was to be a little too PC about the WL MLB, @mainshipfred and @cmason1957 pretty much hit the nail directly on the head.......

 

[cmason1957]

Well, I suppose that I was to be a little too PC about the WL MLB, @mainshipfred and @cmason1957 pretty much hit the nail directly on the head.......

Subtle ain't in my vocabulary. Hopefully the next guy who wants to buy it finds several posts all saying it hasn't really worked for them. I do know there are one or two folks who use it fairly often with good results. And I do have to say I have never used it.

 

[Mcjeff]

Thanks. I just ordered some CH16.