Many different opinions

[wineview]

I’ve been reading a lot of posts about sanitation, yeast use, clarifiers etc. And as a brewer for 17 years I agree with most. The other day I was in a wine and home brew supply store and started talking to a fairly experienced wine maker. When I questioned him about his processes it was so far to the other side I couldn’t believe it. He really didn’t sanitize, used no yeast, no stabilizers or clarifiers. He simply crushed his grapes and let them do their thing. So as a newbie to winemaking this took me aback. It would seem that anything goes in making wine very unlike brewing beer. Any comments?

 

[cmason1957]

There are some winemakers who do this, as in just crush and let God take over. Sometimes they make great wine, sometimes they make not so good.

 

[CK55]

I’ve been reading a lot of posts about sanitation, yeast use, clarifiers etc. And as a brewer for 17 years I agree with most. The other day I was in a wine and home brew supply store and started talking to a fairly experienced wine maker. When I questioned him about his processes it was so far to the other side I couldn’t believe it. He really didn’t sanitize, used no yeast, no stabilizers or clarifiers. He simply crushed his grapes and let them do their thing. So as a newbie to winemaking this took me aback. It would seem that anything goes in making wine very unlike brewing beer. Any comments?

Thats how the did it back in the day, which is why some wineries went out of business because they lost batches. Thats why most use yeast from companies that culture it because its reliable. If a winery lost its batch, it would basically mean the end now.

 

[meadmaker1]

You can catch fish with horse tail hair, tied to a cane pole and a bone hook too.
And sometimes it's fun to give it a try.
But some where along the line some said what if i tie a feather to it, or make it sparkle, or maybe a bug.
Then a way to reel in the line, and you know the rest.
I believe honey was watered down and stored grapes went bad revealing a version of the beverages we seek to create.
At some point wine was made because water would kill you.
I personally don't prefer traditional wines so i take every effort to create a custom beverage that i do perticularly like. So for me clean isn't disputable, yeast selection for tendencies, temperatures and forgiveness seems reasonable for $1. I use bentonite for clearing because it improves the look, saves me time goes in early, and is as natural as dirt.
stabilizers k meta and k sorbate i need, so corks dont pop on my mostly back sweetened collection.

 

[balatonwine]

experienced wine maker

Key word: "experienced". It takes time to learn how to do it that way, consistently and successfully.

 

[balatonwine]

Thats how the did it back in the day, which is why some wineries went out of business because they lost batches.

There is a market for most anything. And exotic markets can have both high risks and high rewards. Catering exclusively to an exotic market has the highest risks, of course. But good businesses diversify to cushion any impact from one or more parts of the business having problem. Frey vineyards is an example. They are organic, but also do what they classify as "biodynamic" wines without intervention or additions, including yeast.

Thats why most use yeast from companies that culture it because its reliable.

Commercial reliability may also mask parts of Terroir and vintage which some say only fully expresses itself using indigenous yeast. Reliable wines is mass market wine or mass market like wine. Some like that, but not everyone. So there are various tastes and markets to cater to. And, ergo, why so many opinions how to make wine.

 

[CK55]

There is a market for most anything. And exotic markets can have both high risks and high rewards. Catering exclusively to an exotic market has the highest risks, of course. But good businesses diversify to cushion any impact from one or more parts of the business having problem. Frey vineyards is an example. They are organic, but also do what they classify as "biodynamic" wines without intervention or additions, including yeast.



Commercial reliability may also mask parts of Terroir and vintage which some say only fully expresses itself using indigenous yeast. Reliable wines is mass market wine or mass market like wine. Some like that, but not everyone. So there are various tastes and markets to cater to. And, ergo, why so many opinions how to make wine.

You should only natural ferment when you know your grapes contain a good natural yeast, i wouldnt wanna lose 30 gallons to a bad ferment. My sangiovese actually half fermented with wild and then the rest was taken care of by my added yeast, found that out, and it kinda added a really good aroma to it and i hope that it tastes good when its done. And aged up.

 

[balatonwine]

You should only natural ferment when you know your grapes contain a good natural yeast

Inoculation of good natural yeast occurs both in the field, and in the wine cellar. Probably more in the wine cellar in older wineries, as over time the ideal yeast strains have been selected there the most and tends to concentrate there more than in the vineyard. There has been a lot written about this. Of course, dumping the lees and skins into the vineyard from the winery helps to also inoculate the vineyard with "ideal" yeast strains over time. All of which makes so called "natural" ferments in the Americas or other newer wine making regions more difficult -- not enough time has passed to inoculate the vineyard or the cellar. Natural ferments are more common in Europe.

Oh, and bringing in good healthy grapes also help a lot -- tend to be less infected with "undesirable" micro-organisms.

 

[winemaker81]

I read an article some years back that stated the best vineyards in France were due not only to grape variety, soil, and climate -- it was also the yeast that grew on the skins. So those vineyards consistently produced the best wines. Yeah, it makes sense.

Balatonwine's comment about innoculating vineyards had not occurred to me, but that also makes sense. If I ran a commercial vineyard, I'd do that -- not just to do "natural" fermentation, but to drive out unwanted yeasts and bacteria.

For home winemakers who get grapes from various places, using natural yeast is a crap shoot.

 

[CK55]

I read an article some years back that stated the best vineyards in France were due not only to grape variety, soil, and climate -- it was also the yeast that grew on the skins. So those vineyards consistently produced the best wines. Yeah, it makes sense.

Balatonwine's comment about innoculating vineyards had not occurred to me, but that also makes sense. If I ran a commercial vineyard, I'd do that -- not just to do "natural" fermentation, but to drive out unwanted yeasts and bacteria.

For home winemakers who get grapes from various places, using natural yeast is a crap shoot.

Even in my own vineyard I wouldn't do it. I prefer getting guaranteed good wine.

 

[Scooter68]

I can't add anything to the discussion about natural vs commercial yeasts BUT Had this "experienced wine maker" said he doesn't sanitize anything.... I would probably have not listened to anything else he said.
Perhaps you mis-interpereted what he said or he was being facetious, I don't know, but if he in fact really doesn't sanitize anything I find that an irresponsible behavior.

This may be over the top but basic sanitation steps exist for a reason. Just look at all the e-coli incidents and the various flu epidemics. WIne has some built in safeguards via acidity and the alcohol content, that's why it was a preferred drink in many areas where water wasn't safe, but still basic sanitization IS important and making light of it..I don't get why anyone running a store would talk like that.

 

[balatonwine]

For home winemakers who get grapes from various places, using natural yeast is a crap shoot.

I agree.

 

[balatonwine]

This may be over the top but basic sanitation steps exist for a reason.

Absolutely.

But do consider that grapes coming in from the field are not sanitized. Pouring in a huge amount of un-sanitized crushed grape material into a sanitized container, is still going to create an un-sanitized must.

Thus, one does not sanitize their wine making equipment to really prevent diseases. Wine is not lettuce. E-coli is not a disease risk in wine making or consumption. In fact the opposite. Flu -- not at all a problem, and not even relevant. One can not directly extrapolate such things, and may be even irresponsible suggesting it *might* be relevant, even if just by example.

Rather the main reason to sanitized wine making equipment is to better control your wine making process. Sanitized equipment, and a shot of K-Meta in the must, helps a lot to prevent a preponderates of micro-organisms that can adversely affect the wine making process. Thus, one does not really sanitize wine making equipment to avoid diseases, but rather mostly to avoid ruining the wine by the action of undesired microorganisms.

 

[Masbustelo]

Another reason to use cultivated yeast is to lower high acidity level in musts. There is definitely a place for 71-B, Maurivin-B, Avante etc.

 

[Ajmassa]

I’ve met plenty of winemakers like the one described in the original post. They are the old timers who’ve made
wine for their whole lives. Old style winemaking. Or rather- old
Style ‘Neighborhood’ winemaking.
They’ve got loads of experience sure- But that doesn’t mean they’ve got much else. It’s experience doing it their way and that’s it. I initially learned the hobby from these guys.
When I get my grapes I’d say a large percentage of the other customers fall closer to the old
Style category then ... I’ll
Call it “WMT forum frequenters’ accepted practices” type. These guys are not reading on a forum, not reading Winemaker Magezine—since they already know ‘all they need to know’.
This style is way more popular than ya think. Tho Some are more reckless than others.
The benefit from learning from these winemakers has actually been substantial. If I only knew winemaking from kit’s instructions and this forum I’d be sweating every little detail of the process. Thinking everything was crucial and needing to gradually figure out which details are more important than others.
But the flip side of that is already knowing what ya can get away with. And just having a good understanding of which details aren’t worth getting hung up on if something was fudged.
And I actually just started a “natural ferment” in their likeness for fun. All equipment sanitized- but no So2 added or yeast or nutrient. I realize it’s a crapshoot, but it at least fermented dry and pressing it today. (Tho I will be adding So2 in a couple weeks)
I’m not an advocate of this practice- but I have tasted very good wine made this way. ........and some not so good.

 

[Johnd]

I’ve met plenty of winemakers like the one described in the original post. They are the old timers who’ve made
wine for their whole lives. Old style winemaking. Or rather- old
Style ‘Neighborhood’ winemaking.
They’ve got loads of experience sure- But that doesn’t mean they’ve got much else. It’s experience doing it their way and that’s it. I initially learned the hobby from these guys.
When I get my grapes I’d say a large percentage of the other customers fall closer to the old
Style category then ... I’ll
Call it “WMT forum frequenters’ accepted practices” type. These guys are not reading on a forum, not reading Winemaker Magezine—since they already know ‘all they need to know’.
This style is way more popular than ya think. Tho Some are more reckless than others.
The benefit from learning from these winemakers has actually been substantial. If I only knew winemaking from kit’s instructions and this forum I’d be sweating every little detail of the process. Thinking everything was crucial and needing to gradually figure out which details are more important than others.
But the flip side of that is already knowing what ya can get away with. And just having a good understanding of which details aren’t worth getting hung up on if something was fudged.
And I actually just started a “natural ferment” in their likeness for fun. All equipment sanitized- but no So2 added or yeast or nutrient. I realize it’s a crapshoot, but it at least fermented dry and pressing it today. (Tho I will be adding So2 in a couple weeks)
I’m not an advocate of this practice- but I have tasted very good wine made this way. ........and some not so good.

Your observations and evaluations are very much on point, as usual. The more we can learn about all of the different ways, styles, aspects, chemistry, biology, art, etc. of winemaking, the more tools we have to develop our own styles. Everyone does things differently, and that's awesome, as all of our wines have the personality of their creator. Knowing what's important and what's not at different stages of the game and in varying situations helps to evaluate what your next steps should or could be. In the end, we are just guiding a natural process that has taken place for thousands of years and trying to maximize our opportunity for success, minimize opportunities for failure. Taking calculated chances is a good thing to do, I did it on my first co-inoculation and it's been my standard since. I too will be doing a natural ferment this year, though it will be inoculated with MLB with the rest of the ferments, glad you're the guinea pig!!!

 

[Scooter68]

Balatonwine - I agree - You can only control so much BUT failing to control what you can...I just don't get it.

I mentioned E-coli and the flu are problems because established processes not being followed or ignorance (A person unaware they are even infected). While not a problem in wine making it points out that good sanitization practices exist for a reason in ALL food related industries and life in general.

When that "experienced" wine maker failed to help a beginner establish good practices, he/she's was being totally irresponsible and for what reason?

 

[Ajmassa]

Agreed that it would be starting with bad practices. By Like anything else it’s best to DYOR and not take one OG’s advice as gospel.
That old timer didn’t think he was teaching bad practices tho. Just lending his technique used to successfully make wine for a lot of years. And ya can’t teach an old dog new tricks in this case.
Their main focus seems to be family tradition, and having enough homemade wine for the family for the year. Not so much learning and trying to improve the product. No “aging for tannins to mellow out”. For us It was donated Altar wine screw cap bottles, And drinking by 6 months (or as soon as co2 was gone) at Sunday family dinner.

 

[Ajmassa]

@Johnd thanks for the compliment.

1 week after crush I’m back down
To 73° and at .997 SG.
Pressing tonight.
Gonna take a baseline chroma test, then give it maybe a month to see if MLF naturally occurs before dosing So2.

I must admit this winemaker mag article I read a few months back helped my decision to attempt a “natural ferment” on 300lbs of grapes. Just for fun and to expand my resume I guess.
I posted the article before but here it is again.

 

[wineview]

I can't add anything to the discussion about natural vs commercial yeasts BUT Had this "experienced wine maker" said he doesn't sanitize anything.... I would probably have not listened to anything else he said.
Perhaps you mis-interpereted what he said or he was being facetious, I don't know, but if he in fact really doesn't sanitize anything I find that an irresponsible behavior.

This may be over the top but basic sanitation steps exist for a reason. Just look at all the e-coli incidents and the various flu epidemics. WIne has some built in safeguards via acidity and the alcohol content, that's why it was a preferred drink in many areas where water wasn't safe, but still basic sanitization IS important and making light of it..I don't get why anyone running a store would talk like that.

I agree 110%. Coming from a brew background sanitation is a top priority. By the way it wasn’t someone working at the store, it was a customer.