I had learned about the trick before coming here but I wanted to pass on another benefit since I've seen posts of other users looking into using marbles. In the photo, these are 1" glass marbles, cleaned and 'soaked' in StarSan before use. The added benefit was as a buffer between the wine and the lees when racking. Even though the racking cane has a cap, it's nice to have the separation.
Marbles to fill headspace isn't their only benefit.
- Thread starter BIACS
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It is a valid reason, depending upon how many times you rack. I have the marbles, and use them sometimes, but I rack 3 times before bottling so lees aren't an issue.
There are several advantages to using marbles. Yes, filling headspace and using them as a buffer separating the lees from clean wine is another. Along with advantages, there are disadvantages that should be mentioned for new winemakers.
The most serious is the possibility of cracking or chipping the carboy when dropping them into the container. The glass to glass force is enough to put small chips in the large container. The chips can likely lead to reducing the integrity of the glass and thus cause catastrophic failure when lifting a full carboy (think about the size/weight of 5 or 6 gallons and where you put your hands when lifting).
The second is pertaining to the buffer. As long as the carboy is not moved, the buffer will remain intact. However, with the marbles in the bottom and not securely set in the cake of the lees, the rolling of the marbles when the carboy is moved will stir up the lees and do just the opposite of the intended use.
Again, I agree using marbles is an option to solve problems with racking and headspace, but solving one problem can lead to unexpected results in another area.
Barry
The most serious is the possibility of cracking or chipping the carboy when dropping them into the container. The glass to glass force is enough to put small chips in the large container. The chips can likely lead to reducing the integrity of the glass and thus cause catastrophic failure when lifting a full carboy (think about the size/weight of 5 or 6 gallons and where you put your hands when lifting).
The second is pertaining to the buffer. As long as the carboy is not moved, the buffer will remain intact. However, with the marbles in the bottom and not securely set in the cake of the lees, the rolling of the marbles when the carboy is moved will stir up the lees and do just the opposite of the intended use.
Again, I agree using marbles is an option to solve problems with racking and headspace, but solving one problem can lead to unexpected results in another area.
Barry
Additionally, it's important to ensure the marbles are lead-free.
dgarzaniti
Junior
I used marbles, in lieu of topping up, in the past for a number of red kits that I bulk aged with oak cubes. I was alway apprehensive when dropping them in the carboy, although I never had an issue.
Now that I have Steve's allinonewinepump, I trying his heads pace eliminator for this, so far so good, no issues with loss of vacuum.
As with everything, time will tell.
To Barry’s point about the possibility of chipping by dropping glass ( lead free) marbles into a glass carboy. Barry have you had this happen to you? I don’t drop them all at once but one at a time. If you use marbles how do you do it?
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A huge problem with damage to a carboy's integrity is that you probably won't realize it until you have a catastrophic failure.
My cellar floor is vinyl tile over concrete. I have workout mats on the floor where I put the carboys, to avoid damage due to repetitively putting carboys on concrete.
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Before retiring, I was involved with engineering instrumentation related to glass manufacturing and conversing with the experts. I also have (had) extensive training in failure analysis. The third part of the reason of my response was watching this YT video:
Putting all three together, with comments from professional wine makers, serious home hobbyist, and other well experienced people (like Bryan), gave me pause using marbles. The pause was confirmed when I saw the results of failed carboys (posts and photos on FB) When the bottom shattered, the poster showed reconstruction surgery on his hands (yeah, it was gross).
All this was found out when I first started my wine journey. I changed my methods to deal with the headspace and racking issues, and bought web carriers and milk crates for transporting all of my carboys (3, 5, and 6 gallon).
No, I do not use marbles. Eliminating as many possibilities for failure is the best prevention.
Barry
Watch the video that Barry posted. It's honesty worth 24 minutes of your time. The takeaway from all of this is that we should all be living vicariously through the mistakes of others. Pay attention to the problems others have, the mistakes they make, and learn from it without repeating the problems and mistakes. As much as feasible.
We have drifted off the main topic ... situation normal.
Back on topic, one of the reasons FWK includes seed packs in Forte kits is the seeds offset the racking cane from the sediment. Same idea as @BIACS suggests.
Use of marbles is a workable solution, but as Barry noted, it introduces other problem. Yet another trade-off in winemaking.
We have drifted off the main topic ... situation normal.
Back on topic, one of the reasons FWK includes seed packs in Forte kits is the seeds offset the racking cane from the sediment. Same idea as @BIACS suggests.
Use of marbles is a workable solution, but as Barry noted, it introduces other problem. Yet another trade-off in winemaking.
Sorry to drift from the marbles topic. I thought it important to make a comment about potential problems caused by marbles.
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Like I said, situation normal. This is the internet!Sorry to drift from the marbles topic. I thought it important to make a comment about potential problems caused by marbles.
It's all good discussion. From my POV, the more I can do or facilitate to help others avoid serious problems, the better.
A few years ago a university researcher conducted a study, and WMT was noted as being a community in which beginners and newcomers were welcomed, which is not the norm in many venue. In my own experience, the gaming and technical forums are full of self-important jerks.
We help people make their own decisions. Threads like this are a critical part of that process.
Barry & Bryan I did watch the video posted by Barry. After which I looked at my 4 6 gallon carboy’s which were bought around 2006 - 2008 were made in Mexico. I have 2 3 gallon carboy’s made in Italy purchased this year. I don’t brew beer so thermal shock doesn’t apply to me. Made in Mexico applies and I do take caution when handling them. I just started using marbles and don’t have much expense in them. I know about C02 tanks to fill up head space. I’ll research the cost of that.
Anyway first I have heard of this and understand the risk involved.
Anyway first I have heard of this and understand the risk involved.
I use 2 methods for handling headspace:
- Use a smaller container
- Fill with a compatible wine
Vacuum and inert gases are invisible. I cannot see them, so I don't trust them. Marbles? I'd have to be confident they are lead free.
Everyone has their personal risk tolerance. The above explains mine.
Whichever method works for you? Do it.
* I like vacuum as a way to use the container I have something in. In six months I expect the vacuum to decay to zero, so I plan on pumping it down every month.
* I have multiple sizes of bottles but never have enough or guess what loss a racking produces.
* Bag in box wine liners work. Best if you are off the lees, they are flexible, they combine with vacuum easily.
* Club projects I will use a similar wine, my country wines I tend to find other ways.
* Have never done marbles but have used 1” plastics. LDPE floats so I add SS weight to it.
As home winemakers we need something better.
* I have multiple sizes of bottles but never have enough or guess what loss a racking produces.
* Bag in box wine liners work. Best if you are off the lees, they are flexible, they combine with vacuum easily.
* Club projects I will use a similar wine, my country wines I tend to find other ways.
* Have never done marbles but have used 1” plastics. LDPE floats so I add SS weight to it.
As home winemakers we need something better.
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I've used marbles for all the reasons given here, all with good success. The video on carboys was eye opening. Thanks for sharing BPL. I do put my 5 gallon carboys in old plastic milk crates. They are heavy plastic and make moving the carboys safer. They also protect from the bottom breaking out.
I use these to move my carboy’s.
https://www.harborfreight.com/24-in-x-16-in-1000-lb-capacity-solid-deck-hardwood-dolly-59309.html
https://www.harborfreight.com/24-in-x-16-in-1000-lb-capacity-solid-deck-hardwood-dolly-59309.html
Amazing discussion. Saving carboys is always before marbles. The carboy is the subject. Marbles are the describer.
PLUS: This is the beginners forum.
PLUS: This is the beginners forum.
