''natural'' wine, as a test?

[susieqz]

hiya, guys.
i see most people look down on natural wines.
i understand this, as many folks are putting lots of time n money into their wines.
but i have a problem.
i have a nice grape vine, but the mother was mislabled. it was supposed to be cabernet sauvignon, but it's not.
i have no way to learn the variety.
what i know is, it's vigorous n very prolific. it has adapted to the highly alkaline soil n wild temperature swings of the high plains.

i have room for another 3 or 4 vines, which i could start from cuttings of my plant.
before i do this, i need to find out if it will produce a drinkable young wine.
i'd like to produce a gallon, or even a couple of quarts of wine as a test.
i don't want to spend much time or money on this test.
i'll buy the equipment if i start real production.
so, can i rely on wild yeast in primitive conditions to tell me what i need to know?
i do have some champagne yeast around i could use, if necessary.
this is complicated by the fact that the work would be done in my kitchen, which is full of wild yeast. i've baked bread weekly for years n capturing wild yeast is easy, because it's in the air.
so, can i do this?
or, would the taste of the grape juice tell me what i need to know?

i only expect drinkable.
i've never had a wine that impressed me that didn't come from the bordeaux region.
thanks for reading this,
sue

 

[Scooter68]

Depending on your definition of "much time or money" you should be able to get going pretty inexpensively. IF you think you'd like doing it the basics aren't that much really. For about $150.00 you should be able to get a starter wine making kit with the basic chemicals and tools.

Going really 'natural' could ruin your outcome or make it less than enjoyable. Some basic testing along the way can help you monitor the process and avoid problems. Also you can get plenty of bottles and 1 gallon carboys at recycling centers to save more on your inevestment.

Remember a good sanitizing routine is the first step. Wild yeast in the air is not a big issue. Bad bugs (Fruit Flies) and bacteria are a bigger issue when going more natural with your wine.


There are many starter kits out there. Be aware that some things like Carboy handles and stirring spoons are just package fillers and you can do just fine without them. More important are the pieces of equipment (Testing and storage) and additives like acid blend, yeast nutrient, Potassium Metabisulfate, and Potassium Sorbate.

Here's is one that looks to have most of the basics: (It's listed on Amazon) North Mountain Supply 1 Gallon Wine From Fruit Complete 30pc Kit - Only Fruit & Bottles Required

I do Fruit wines so I used a different starter kit but still had to add some hard ware for testing
(Primarily SG testing and pH testing)

And I might add that if you want to try fruit wine making, that's fun too as you can actually do well visiting any fruit stands and buying there "Overripe"
and bruised fruit like peaches, plums or just find a wild blackberry patch.

 

[salcoco]

if you are making only a gallon, you can buy a wine yeast for less than a dollar at your local wine supply shop. I would also purchase a hydrometer another couple of dollars to measure sugar of juice, add whatever sugar required to get specific gravity to 1.092 add yeast viola wait until wine clears and drink. try again with same batch aged about three months to see if it has a future.

 

[wildhair]

Just my own thoughts - but if you have a small local winery close by - or maybe a hobbyist - why not talk to him/her ? Maybe you could take some grapes to him & would he make a small batch? You'd have a better chance at seeing the true potential of your grapes that way. He can test the juice and you'll get an experienced opinion on it's potential.

I don't think you're going to be "impressed" by your grapes and the wine they COULD make if you just want to make something that's "drinkable" and try to do it w/o the equipment and some practice.

I put in some Pink Reliance seedless grapes 25 years ago. Not exactly the best "wine" grape - lacks the higher sugar content of the wine grapes. But it does make a delightful white wine anyway. Very "drinkable"......but then I never look down on anything "au natural".

 

[susieqz]

thanks. i'm not willing to spend $150 on 2 bottles of iffy wine, but i can buy a hydrometer n some yeast.
this first batch won't be fun. i have no press, so just crushing grapes will b work.
i just wanna try this because it looks like i'll be overwhelmed with grapes, even after i thinned the bunches heavily. no winery around here. i'm on the high plains, 3 miles from the nearest neighbor.
all i need to know is if it's worthwhile propagating this vine, to get reasonable production.

 

[Johnd]

@susieqz Do the grapes produced by your vine have seeds in them, or are they seedless?

 

[Scooter68]

Fully agree with the short game plan (Salaco suggestion) To make life a little easier visit you local Home Improvement center and pick up a paint straining bag and perhaps a 1 gallon food grade plastic bucket. That will make the process a little easier. Crush the grapes in that bag with a potato masher or what ever you have.

It's going to take from 16 to 18lbs of grapes for a gallon (Five bottles of wine) Depending on what that vine produces, you are correct in about 2 bottles of wine from one vine on average. If the vine is really a wine grape you should be good to go, if it's totally mislabeled and is in fact a table grape, you might need to add a little sugar tot he juice. That's the reason for a hydrometer. You want to end up with at least 9-10% alcohol in that wine to really come off as a wine.

Who knows that might turn out to be a pleasant surprise.

By the why where are the "High Plains" you speak of? Seems to be several in the US.

 

[susieqz]

john, they may have seeds, but this will b my first taste.
apparently, this variety does nothing til year 4.
i'll get those, scooter.
i can't believe i won't get 18 lbs of grapes.
i've been advised the grapes are unusually large.
i've just been advised that this vine may b victoria red, bu i haven't researched it yet.
oh, i'm in new mexico. there are vineyards a few hundred miles south of me.

 

[wildhair]

I believe it takes from 3-5 years for most grapes to begin producing. Mine really started kicking out grapes about year 10. Which is why I have no intention of planting another one now. LOL I got 5 gal of juice from my one grape vine last year.
Good luck!

 

[susieqz]

thanks wild. i see my vine is not a victoria red.
it survived 2 days of -1F.
so, i just have an unknown.
i still have space for 3 more.
grapes are quite attractive, so they'd dress up my garden.

 

[Johnd]

john, they may have seeds, but this will b my first taste.
apparently, this variety does nothing til year 4.
i'll get those, scooter.
i can't believe i won't get 18 lbs of grapes.
i've been advised the grapes are unusually large.
i've just been advised that this vine may b victoria red, bu i haven't researched it yet.
oh, i'm in new mexico. there are vineyards a few hundred miles south of me.

If you find that the grapes have no seeds, and are large, you’ll probably have table grapes on your hands, not the best winemaking material.

 

[Scooter68]

Hope you do get enough for a gallon. Makes the calculations for any additions a lot easier since every thing is normal based off of 1 gallon or 5 gallons.

Ok New Mexico. We pass through there on 40 several times a year visiting grandchildren in California. New Mexico the first relief from the boring landscapes of Oklahoma and Texas panhandle.

Yeah only problem I have with grapes is knowing how severely to prune in the fall./winter. I have some photos of grapevines along the Rhein River in Germany being pruned and that gives me an idea of how much to cut.

 

[susieqz]

i have just been advised that these are red seeded grapes,
variety still unknown.
clusters large n heavy.
mine are just growing but i think i'll get a full bushel.
i don't know grapes but i find this amazing in first year production.
the vine has never been pruned, as i planted it o provide shade for my arbor.
it's 15' long

 

[Scooter68]

I suspect pruning for a table grape vine is different than wine grapes so at 15 feet that is one hoss of a vine.

Congrats.

(Watch for marauding birds)

 

[susieqz]

the vine provides beauty n shade. now that it is producing grapes, i've been reading up on pruning.
these articles seem to be written in english, but are incomprehensible.
i know what individual words mean, but put together when talking about pruning my eyes blur n my mind runs in neutral.

i think the same thing will happen studying wine making,
there seems to be a best yeast for every type of grape.
didn't see any yeast for unknown grapes.
didn't see any that promised wine that tastes like a major chateau, either.
i enjoy working with yeast. that's why i bake bread n make carbonated drinks.
but, finding the actual differences between wine yeasts may be impossible.

 

[salcoco]

start with a general yeast that will not cause problem I would suggest Lavlin EC1118. search You Tube for videos on pruning grapes. you can match new words with pictures of what they are talking about. it is a new vocabulary.

 

[Scooter68]

Agree with Salcoco on the You Tube videos for pruning. BUT see if you can find one for pruning Table grapes vs wine grapes. I'm not sure there is a difference but ya never know....

As to yeast varieties here's a link to a chart of the major companies yeasts. https://winemakermag.com/yeast-strains-chart

It can be bewildering but if you stick to the most common available ones like Lavin and Red Star that should help. I have had good success with Lavin's K1-V1116 for fruit wines.

As to EC-1118, it seems to be a solid performer for most folks. Just keep in mind not to push the upper temp limits of the yeast. At too low a temp it just won't start or will start slow. At high temps off odors and gases can form. I generally start it out at the upper side of the temp range and then move to cooler location since the fermentation itself generates significant heat.

 

[susieqz]

thanks guys. i'll get one of those yeasts, mail order.
no winemaking shops in small prairie towns.

i hope this works cause it's gonna get pricey for 2 bottles.

i gotta get that meter n corks n the corking machine.

can i do without corks for a young wine?

by the way, the recipes seem to say i squeeze the grapes n then it's just juice n yeast.
somehow, that feels wrong to me.
i feel like the wineskins should be in the bucket with the juice.
i suppose that's wrong?

 

[Scooter68]

If there is a recycling center near you might look for a couple of empty wine bottles with screw caps. That's where I get all my bottles. I use corks but if the bottle has a screw cap that still seals well it should work for your test run. I soak off labels and wash the bottles well inside and out. Just rinse well after washing. There are some very simple hand corking devices available for about $10,00 that will work until you decide if you want to dive into wine making more. I used one for the first 10 batches or so. But some good clean screw caps bottles will work for now.

As to the grape skins I will defer to others with more grape wine making experience but I would expect that you would keep the skins in the wine throughout the fermentation period. If you have then in a mesh bag (Paint strainer bag) you can pull them out easily and squeeze the last bit of juice/wine from them.

Hand corker https://www.midwestsupplies.com/master-vintner-mini-wine-corker
(If you order a few other items like your yeast and bump the order up you get free shipping. There are plenty of on line places to find a few basic things.)

 

[susieqz]

thanks tons, scooter.
so, i read the directions wrong n skins can be included?

it's cool my feelings are sometimes right.
i want the skins because they are clean. i'm 3 mils frm the road, so no exhaust dirt.
plus these are organic. no pesticies, fungicides etc.
that wasn't on purpose.
it's just i grew the grape for shade so i never fussed with it.
the air here is so very dry, molds n stuff are no problem.
i doubt i'll wash the grapes.
oh! i have a screw top gallon jug from some godawful wine, but there would likely be a big airspace if i use that. is that a problem?
i do have regular wine bottles i can empty, if so.