Need advice on selecting varietal to plant

[Newine]

I’m not a big producer either. Coincidentally, my rows are also about 200’.

Yeah I know on Valiant. MN is not the authority on Valiants though being developed at SDSU. Table Mountain is one of the only remaining wineries I know making wine commercially from Valiant. But I figured out how to get most of the “foxiness” out with help from this forum. I got 400# of those this year and didn’t even pick one row. So, I’m looking to replace 50 vines or so.

My point is that I don’t want any more varietals with tiny, labor intensive clusters. Canopy management favors Noiret as well, of course. (I have a study on that somewhere). So I doubt that would make up the deficit in size.

By the way, someone talked about acidity in Marquette. My understanding is that it is not normally a varietal known for high acidity. What we’ve noticed here though is that a lot of cold hearty grapes that have higher acidity common in cold weather varietals it seems can be mitigated by harvesting with higher sugar and hence later in the season, if it doesn’t snow. Maybe petit pearl would benefit from later harvests here as well. A pH of 3.4 is a bit more acidic than I like personally.

As to my question though, is crimson pearl also a varietal that produces small grapes and tiny clusters? I don’t think I read the answer to that.

Regards.

Yeah, I answered it quick, petite and crimson are sister grapes so expect similar size berries in the cluster.

 

[Masbustelo]

Regarding Crimson Pearl question being a small grape or not: The pearl in the names of these varietals refers to size. They have been bred and chosen partly for the small size as this increases skin contact ration in the must, which increases color and other positive factors. The increased volume of seeds is believed to help the hybrids in the area of tannins. The smaller grapes and increased seeds are generally producing higher quality wines, than the larger more traditional appearing grapes available for the Northern U.S..

 

[peterseng]

Regarding Crimson Pearl question being a small grape or not: The pearl in the names of these varietals refers to size. They have been bred and chosen partly for the small size as this increases skin contact ration in the must, which increases color and other positive factors. The increased volume of seeds is believed to help the hybrids in the area of tannins. The smaller grapes and increased seeds are generally producing higher quality wines, than the larger more traditional appearing grapes available for the Northern U.S..

Thanks for that clarification. I am currently leaning toward Crimson Pearl for my planting and knowing the benefits of the smaller berries is quite helpful.

 

[StevenD55]

Thanks for that clarification. I am currently leaning toward Crimson Pearl for my planting and knowing the benefits of the smaller berries is quite helpful.

Sounds like an experiment for sure.

Reading all of this, I was curious and did a little more research. 3 points jumped out at me:

You are in Zone 6 and thinking of growing a Zone 4 grape, right? That’s not too bad. But have you found any other experienced growers your area to see what they grow? Generally growers want to grow grapes that lean to the warmer side of their zone. The Zone 6 Cab Savs I’ve had would be a good choice for me on some years, but just isn’t one that I can reasonably count on to ripen. 70 miles away, it grows and ripens just fine.

It was mentioned that bud break for pearl grapes is May 14 or so. Checking the sun’s inclination in MN for May 14, it’s roughly 60 degree angle. Where you are, 60 degrees of inclination occurs in April. So bud break may well be earlier. What are the chances of frost in early May? I didn’t compare average temperatures for the 2 locations though.

It was also mentioned that there is a benefit of small berries and more seeds with regard to tannins. The article in the link below gives a little different perspective on this subject and even then, the experts’ conclusions seems to be more focused on seeds being “not evil” as opposed to being advantageous, except as compared to seedless. Being a matter of personal taste it doesn’t seem like there is really much science behind it. But since the producer is marketing a small, seedy grape, I would be surprised if he were to take any other position...

https://www.winesandvines.com/columns/section/24/article/92981/Seed-Tannin-A-Necessary-Evil

This article is a little more scientific and discusses stems and seeds. It supports the practice of one of my friends that believes in leaving some stems in the must. It does say seeds add to color whereas stems detract. But I’ve never had a problem with color in my wines except when I limited skin contact.

https://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/acs.jafc.6b01806

Anyway, playing devil’s advocate I guess. But, my nature is to explore both sides of the situation.

Good Luck!

 

[peterseng]

Hi Steve. Thanks for your thoughts on this - and SOMEONE has to play devil's advocate. Your remarks about late frost and bud-break give me pause. The last frost for my area seems to typically be late April or early May. With an estimated May 14 bud break, that didn't seem too risky, but if what you said about sun angle holds true, it could become a problem
Regarding growing a zone 6 grape, my biggest concerns are that they may not ripen, or only do so intermittently. Since I have such a limited space to plant vines (probably room for a dozen) I don't want to spend the money, time and effort on something that has a significant chance of not yielding a harvest. My area seems to normally experience about 2300 GDD by the end of September, which is not enough warmth to ripen most traditional vinifera vines (from what I've read).That's why I was leaning toward the hardier vines with shorter growth cycles.
Regarding seeds and stems, I hadn't initially thought too much about that until someone mentioned the skin to pulp ratio in a small berry being higher. I will definitely read through the articles you linked. More knowledge is always a good thing! Thanks!

 

[peterseng]

Oh, and as for experienced growers in my area, I do not know of any. I am relatively new to this town, and the Lehigh Valley (where I spent most of my life) has a significantly different climate. There is only one professional vineyard I have found that grows nearby in similar conditions, and they seemed to opt for warmer climate grapes, but based on the availability of the wines from some varietals, I suspect they have had limited success. To be fair, however, I have not yet reached out to them regarding this.

 

[StevenD55]

You are fortunate with your last frost being that early. Ours is more like Mem Day.

One practice might be to cover your vines if you can. I read a little about pruning early buds. The vine will produce replacement buds, but yield not be as bountiful. I don’t recall where I read about this practice though. You will just have experiment.

Issues with mildew are pretty much unheard of here. It sounds something else you will need to consider.

Regards.

 

[peterseng]

Covering the vines might be a viable option since I'm talking about such a small plot. As for mildew, it will definitely be something to take into consideration with as much rain as we get here.

 

[tom6922]

Thanks for the suggestions! I took a look at Marquette and it seems like a good match. My biggest concern is that (from what I've read) the acidity is rather high. I don't have much experience managing acidity at that level. Do you have any suggestions for addressing that?

all the grapes I grow have similar high acidity, surprising to me that even the cab franc was high, maybe due to my Michigan climate or soil? I lower them primarily with calcium carbonate (by treating 25% of the juice, then adding it back to the main batch). Also if the brix is over 22 (which Marquette is) I will add a little water. I haven't tried an MLF yet, but will next year (ph has to be at least 3.1). Lastly, I will backsweeten it slightly at bottling to balance the acidity. I experiment with different sweetness additions and aim for a good balance. I'm gradually replacing my other reds with Marquette, no grape is perfect, but for me it's the closest.

 

[tom6922]

Thanks for the warning about early budding, Steve. That is one aspect I hadn't thought to consider, but an important one!

True that Marquette buds out a few days to a week earlier than some others, which leaves it vulnerable to a late freeze. To counter that, I don't prune until mid-April (which is supposed to delay onset of bud break) and I leave longer spurs and a few long canes. If we get a late freeze and a lot of buds die, that gives me greater bud survival and some options. If no late freeze, then I do a final pruning in mid-May. Most years I have gotten very good harvests.

 

[StevenD55]

all the grapes I grow have similar high acidity, surprising to me that even the cab franc was high, maybe due to my Michigan climate or soil? I lower them primarily with calcium carbonate (by treating 25% of the juice, then adding it back to the main batch). Also if the brix is over 22 (which Marquette is) I will add a little water. I haven't tried an MLF yet, but will next year (ph has to be at least 3.1). Lastly, I will backsweeten it slightly at bottling to balance the acidity. I experiment with different sweetness additions and aim for a good balance. I'm gradually replacing my other reds with Marquette, no grape is perfect, but for me it's the closest.

Marquette is supposedly low acid. But I sure do hear a lot of discussion about acidity issues.

Here is one reference on controlling acidity and sugar. Probably worth a try.

http://northerngrapesproject.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Marquette-and-Frontenac-Viticulture-fruit-ripening-enology-and-tasting.

 

[peterseng]

After much deliberation (and quite a fair bit of distraction) I think I've settled on Crimson Pearl. I would like, however, to try a wine made from this grape before investing the time, money and energy into planting a dozen vines. Does anyone happen to know where I can find wine made from Crimson Pearl for sale? I have spent quite a bit of time searching online and cannot seem to find it available anywhere...

 

[CabEnthusiast]

If you go vinifera, then Cabernet Franc is extremely cold tolerant, It is actually the most cold tolerant of the vinifera vines. that is not a hybrid.

 

[Rice_Guy]

Big big Creek is the first place I would go. The owner is extremely proficient in the vineyard. One thing not mentioned is spraying. Big creek likes organic with treatments like Bordeaux mix, again he has the science down and has a good library. Jim Thorp has lots of elevation, depending on land you shouldn’t have to use Mn hybrids.
Of the northern hybrids l am moving toward Itasca as a white. Last year was high sugar / low TA. My Edelweiss is getting a hair cut at ground level since it will fall off the plant above 16 brix. My guess is if it says thick skin or ice wine it will hang till it is actually ripe. Briana will stay at least till I have more Itasca. I don’t have a favorite red. Marquette, Foch are ok. The comments about small berry are true. Talking with Plocher he skips mentioning need to spray
If I am making life / cultural practices easy I like Niagara, Concord, Beta,,, and live with foxy flavors. Having plants has been “the year I learned about” black rot, Japanese beetles, grape leaf weevils, etc. The second place I would go is your Pa extension to ask about culture. Iowa, Indiana have good info on the web.

 

[CabEnthusiast]

Big big Creek is the first place I would go. The owner is extremely proficient in the vineyard. One thing not mentioned is spraying. Big creek likes organic with treatments like Bordeaux mix, again he has the science down and has a good library. Jim Thorp has lots of elevation, depending on land you shouldn’t have to use Mn hybrids.
Of the northern hybrids l am moving toward Itasca as a white. Last year was high sugar / low TA. My Edelweiss is getting a hair cut at ground level since it will fall off the plant above 16 brix. My guess is if it says thick skin or ice wine it will hang till it is actually ripe. Briana will stay at least till I have more Itasca. I don’t have a favorite red. Marquette, Foch are ok. The comments about small berry are true. Talking with Plocher he skips mentioning need to spray
If I am making life / cultural practices easy I like Niagara, Concord, Beta,,, and live with foxy flavors. Having plants has been “the year I learned about” black rot, Japanese beetles, grape leaf weevils, etc. The second place I would go is your Pa extension to ask about culture. Iowa, Indiana have good info on the web.

Bordeaux mix if you are talking about the mixture to treat fungus, is dangerous stuff, its actually toxic and people have died from using it frequently, and it runs off into the soil contributing to toxicity in soil. Just thought that I would mention that.

 

[GreginND]

Are crimson pearl clusters as small as petit pearl?

That’s one reason why I’m replacing some of my present Valiant vines with Noiret. Berry weight is 50% larger and fewer seeds per berry.

No, they are bigger than petite pearl. Overall, Crimson pearl is a great grape to work with. It has later bud break and early ripening like others have mentioned. Marquette has struggled here with frost damage and cordon damage even in seemingly milder winters. I haven't grown crimson yet but have had plenty of wine made from it now. It is amenable to a lot of different styles of wine. I think Petite Pearl has a bit more complex and dense flavor (more skin/juice ratio?). But Crimson is a better grower and excellent flavor.

 

[peterseng]

No, they are bigger than petite pearl. Overall, Crimson pearl is a great grape to work with. It has later bud break and early ripening like others have mentioned. Marquette has struggled here with frost damage and cordon damage even in seemingly milder winters. I haven't grown crimson yet but have had plenty of wine made from it now. It is amenable to a lot of different styles of wine. I think Petite Pearl has a bit more complex and dense flavor (more skin/juice ratio?). But Crimson is a better grower and excellent flavor.

Greg, I wanted to try some wines made with the grapes I am considering, but have been unable to locate anything made with Crimson Pearl. Can you point me in the direction of a Winery that makes this wine?

 

[ThreeSheetsToTheWind]

Petersen, I'm not sure how hard it would be to get the bottle to your door, but a the Richibucto River Wine estate in New-Brunswick, Canada makes some great wines from the Northern hybrids.

Their Foch and Marquette are my favorite wines. Period. Now I'm not a wine snob, but I know what I like, and I know what I don't like. And I like those wines. So much so that I planted some.

I remember seeing one of their bottles not long ago and it was one of the pearls, not sure which one. It might be worth your while to contact the Hudsons and see if you can get a bottle or three shipped.

We're about on the line between zones 4b and 5a if I'm not mistaken, and their vineyards always look great. No problems growing those up here. Best of luck in your quest!