New Winery- What equipment should I acquire first? Filter/Tanks/Glycol Chiller/etc

[alekmager]

Hello!

We are a newly licensed winery that is looking to finally be making some equipment purchases. We have had some bad luck contracting our harvests out to be made for us so far resulting in two vintages that have been deemed unsellable. I would like to get some equipment to be able to make the wine ourselves because of this. We are on a limited budget and are hoping to start ordering bulk juice/wines to blend and process to generate some sort of income while we continue to tie up our loose ends and wait for next years harvest.

Currently, I am thinking it would be the wisest to invest into a filtering system and a few stainless IBC style totes that connect to a glycol system. Does that make sense to do? My plan is to unload juice/premade wines into the stainless, stabilize if necessary, filter, and bottle. I am completely new to the world of winemaking, although I have 5+ years brewing experience, and would like to see what y'all think about this. I'd appreciate any recommendations on equipment to purchase, what your filtering regiment entails/what type of filters do you use, and any other advice you may have for me to get things going over here.

Thank you!

 

[Ohio Bob]

How much wine making experience? Past beer experience only goes so far, some of the equipment is the same. Why was the wine unsalable, was it undrinkable? Once you solve that issue, then equipment can be discussed.

As always, an opinion based on the limited info.

 

[BarrelMonkey]

What kind of wine (white? red?) and what sort of volumes? And as @Ohio Bob says, why was the previous wine unsellable? It would be instructive to know what you think your custom crush facility did wrong, and how you think you could improve it.
That being said...

You refer to buying bulk juice/wine, and as I'm sure you know there is a big difference in what steps you need to plan for in the case of juice vs wine!

Some sort of containers will of course be important first purchases: I would also plan on a number of smaller vessels (barrels, 55/30 gal drums, 5/7.5/15 gal kegs) since it's unlikely everything will fit nicely into one big vessel with limited headspace. What is your facility like - will the tanks stay in place when full or need to be moved around? If the latter, you'll also need to budget for a forklift or at least a powered pallet jack.

You'll also need a nice pump and hoses in order to move wine/juice around. And a steamer/steam hoses if you want to run a sterile bottling operation, though you may be able to get by with just good sanitation.

Glycol chiller is necessary if you plan on cold stabilization, though it's expensive (both capital purchase and running costs) and there are now some alternative treatments that are FDA approved and can help stabilize your wine without cold stab.

Filtration depends on what kind of wine you're making and what scale. If you want to filter yourself, plan on getting a lenticular filter housing, a smaller housing for final sterile filtration and a low pressure pump to drive them. The exact filtration program will depend on the type of wine and turbidity. In my part of the world you can rent a crossflow filtration unit for a few days, which might be an option in your first few years (and maybe beyond). We also have vendors who will come to your site for a day with a larger crossflow unit, assuming your volume makes it cost effective.

The same philosophy applies to bottling: is your planned output small enough that you can make do with a semi-professional bottling station? Or is there a local vendor who can bring a mobile bottling line on site? (or maybe you can rent bottling equipment?)

Lots to plan for and think about, good luck! Do you know of any local winemakers who have been through this and can maybe advise?

 

[NorCal]

How much wine will you be making now and the immediate future?

 

[Hokapsig]

i would advise against purchasing any equipment until you can make your wines which can sell in small batch first. Once you have wines that people will pay you for, THEN you can scale up. FB Marketplace and Craigslist are your friend, but eventually you will need some VC tanks, filter system, bottler, scale and glassware, 3 bowl sink, Race labeler, open head drums, etc.

But don't spend a dime until you have wines that you can sell.

 

[alekmager]

How much wine making experience? Past beer experience only goes so far, some of the equipment is the same. Why was the wine unsalable, was it undrinkable? Once you solve that issue, then equipment can be discussed.

As always, an opinion based on the limited info.

Hey Bob

Not much, other than doing it with the family unfortunately but going to be attending some classes shortly. We also have some vineyards around here kind of helping us with the process which helps. We had it sent out for analysis, as well as had it sampled by some sommeliers at Penn State and all came back with very negative reviews and deemed it best not to sell. We believe it wasn't cold or heat stabilized and probably had some other flaws in the process. The contracting vineyards went through several winemakers and we were told no one took great notes, or at least left them. Thinking we may be able to crack the bottles and hit with some bentonite before another filtration and blend with bulk wine for a table wine at a low cost. This is why I'm looking for some advice on the equipment. We have made some great wines in the past and believe with the current assistance we have we can produce great wines, but just need to figure out the equipment to scale up with and do it professionally. I'm looking for around 5-7 bbl batches to start and scale with. Were in a good location for a winery so I think this is a reasonable volume to work with to start. Been growing these vines for 8 years and finally are looking to invest in some equipment.

Thanks for any advice you may have! Happy New Year

 

[Ohio Bob]

Hey Bob

Not much, other than doing it with the family unfortunately but going to be attending some classes shortly. We also have some vineyards around here kind of helping us with the process which helps. We had it sent out for analysis, as well as had it sampled by some sommeliers at Penn State and all came back with very negative reviews and deemed it best not to sell. We believe it wasn't cold or heat stabilized and probably had some other flaws in the process. The contracting vineyards went through several winemakers and we were told no one took great notes, or at least left them. Thinking we may be able to crack the bottles and hit with some bentonite before another filtration and blend with bulk wine for a table wine at a low cost. This is why I'm looking for some advice on the equipment. We have made some great wines in the past and believe with the current assistance we have we can produce great wines, but just need to figure out the equipment to scale up with and do it professionally. I'm looking for around 5-7 bbl batches to start and scale with. Were in a good location for a winery so I think this is a reasonable volume to work with to start. Been growing these vines for 8 years and finally are looking to invest in some equipment.

Thanks for any advice you may have! Happy New Year

I have to agree with @Hokapsig, I would demonstrate proof of concept before scaling up. The other point that bothers me is you’re contemplating rescuing bad wine by blending with bulk wine to make a table wine, but also “great wines”. Sounds like opposite ends of the marketplace. Not that it’s impossible, but if you’re just starting out, pick your niche. If you’re transitioning from serious hobby to professional, do you really want to make table plonk?

I hope I haven’t rained on your dream, just reading the tea leaves based on what’s written above.

One last piece of advice, most winemakers say to use the best fruit. If your contract vineyards aren’t doing you right, perhaps it’s best to start making them do you right. Require quality from your fruit sources.

 

[alekmager]

I have to agree with @Hokapsig, I would demonstrate proof of concept before scaling up. The other point that bothers me is you’re contemplating rescuing bad wine by blending with bulk wine to make a table wine, but also “great wines”. Sounds like opposite ends of the marketplace. Not that it’s impossible, but if you’re just starting out, pick your niche. If you’re transitioning from serious hobby to professional, do you really want to make table plonk?

I hope I haven’t rained on your dream, just reading the tea leaves based on what’s written above.

One last piece of advice, most winemakers say to use the best fruit. If your contract vineyards aren’t doing you right, perhaps it’s best to start making them do you right. Require quality from your fruit sources.

I think there is a misunderstanding here.

For clarity, I own the vineyard, we produced about 12 tons of beautiful grapes last year- chardonnay, gruner, reisling, and cab franc. The vineyard we've contracted is purely just producing the wine, not the fruit. We have independently produced each of those varietals into great wines on a 200 liter scale. We invested a great deal into the field, our wines we've produced on our own and the hiccup is our lack of equipment to be able to control our own production. We have a great friends in our area who are willing to help, and we have a winemaker who's willing to work, we just don't have the equipment. I appreciate the concerns however my question is regarding equipment, not our readiness or our vision.

Disregarding the prior batches that we did not produce, what equipment would you recommend focusing on first?

Thanks

 

[alekmager]

What kind of wine (white? red?) and what sort of volumes? And as @Ohio Bob says, why was the previous wine unsellable? It would be instructive to know what you think your custom crush facility did wrong, and how you think you could improve it.
That being said...

You refer to buying bulk juice/wine, and as I'm sure you know there is a big difference in what steps you need to plan for in the case of juice vs wine!

Some sort of containers will of course be important first purchases: I would also plan on a number of smaller vessels (barrels, 55/30 gal drums, 5/7.5/15 gal kegs) since it's unlikely everything will fit nicely into one big vessel with limited headspace. What is your facility like - will the tanks stay in place when full or need to be moved around? If the latter, you'll also need to budget for a forklift or at least a powered pallet jack.

You'll also need a nice pump and hoses in order to move wine/juice around. And a steamer/steam hoses if you want to run a sterile bottling operation, though you may be able to get by with just good sanitation.

Glycol chiller is necessary if you plan on cold stabilization, though it's expensive (both capital purchase and running costs) and there are now some alternative treatments that are FDA approved and can help stabilize your wine without cold stab.

Filtration depends on what kind of wine you're making and what scale. If you want to filter yourself, plan on getting a lenticular filter housing, a smaller housing for final sterile filtration and a low pressure pump to drive them. The exact filtration program will depend on the type of wine and turbidity. In my part of the world you can rent a crossflow filtration unit for a few days, which might be an option in your first few years (and maybe beyond). We also have vendors who will come to your site for a day with a larger crossflow unit, assuming your volume makes it cost effective.

The same philosophy applies to bottling: is your planned output small enough that you can make do with a semi-professional bottling station? Or is there a local vendor who can bring a mobile bottling line on site? (or maybe you can rent bottling equipment?)

Lots to plan for and think about, good luck! Do you know of any local winemakers who have been through this and can maybe advise?

Hey!

Thank you for actually answering a few of my questions! We are primarily producing whites currently although we have a block in the vineyard growing cab franc as well, probably will get around 3 tons off of the vines this coming year. We did a rose with it this year as we only were able to harvest a small amount of it.

The previous batches had too many hands on it (4 winemakers in total) and from what info I could gather from the last winemaker, no one had kept any notes on it and steps in stability were most likely overlooked. The notes from every professional we had who tried it also led us to that conclusion. The vineyard had issues with their wines as well that year and fined it with bentonite before running it through a .45 filtration a final time and they said it cleaned it up tremendously. I don't have the equipment to do that which is why I'm trying to sort out what to get in the hopes of saving 12,000 bottles of wine. If I can't save it, I'll find someone who can distill it.

We have a 7500 sq ft block building with high ceilings though. Tanks could remain in place once in there however we do have forks to shift things. Have you had any experience with stainless IBC? Last expo I went to I was looking at some of the Titan IBC tanks and thought they may be a good starting point. What is the benefit of lenticular filtration over plate filters?

Thanks again!

 

[vinny]

What is your business plan?

To ask a bunch of randoms on a wine forum with who knows what for credentials for random input on how to get set up.

You need an expert to assess your vineyard and to design a small scale winery with a vision to expand. If you can work a plan into that to save this batch great, but moving forward to fix the past is not the right strategy.

There are many flags in what you are posting that are leading to the replies you are getting. You have a winemaker, but he doesn't know what you need?

You are trying to invest money to save a past mistake instead of investing in a solid plan for the future. Business is not a riddle. Successful wineries all have A, B, and C, as all successful restaurants have their A,B, and C. Don't set yourself up for failure. You need more than a dream. If you don't have the experience pay someone who does. Get it on paper. Every business needs a solid written business plan. What you don't spend now, is going to cost you later.

That is my opinion as a business owner. As a winemaker, I wouldn't even get started professionally. I know I don't know enough about it.

 

[winemaker81]

@alekmager, I agree with Dave (@vinny). Not that posting on WMT was a mistake -- you can get help here, but it may not be what you expected.

For perspective, I have decades of winemaking experience, and have produced wines from grapes as well as fruits. However, my annual production is 50 to 90 US gallons, and my largest single batch is < 25 US gallons, so I'm completely unqualified to outfit a winery.

I suggest you post in the Commercial Winery forum, as we have a fair number of professional members who can help.

https://www.winemakingtalk.com/forums/commercial-winery-forum.82/
I also suggest you start touring neighboring wineries and talk to the owners and winemakers. Make lists of what they tell you and post questions in the Commercial forum. In addition to the current professionals, we have members who are investigating going pro, and you'll find a good group to discuss the issues with.

 

[BarrelMonkey]

We have a 7500 sq ft block building with high ceilings though. Tanks could remain in place once in there however we do have forks to shift things. Have you had any experience with stainless IBC? Last expo I went to I was looking at some of the Titan IBC tanks and thought they may be a good starting point. What is the benefit of lenticular filtration over plate filters?

We use stainless IBC tanks at the winery where I work, they're great. TranStore is another brand to consider, we use various sizes ranging from 250-550 gal. I would consider how you plan to rack in and out of the tanks when you're selecting ports, valves and other fittings. You might also want to give some thought to how you are going to sanitize/sterilize them, particularly for whites. Maybe a steam generator would be helpful if you plan on bottling wine that may still have some residual microorganisms - it doesn't make sense to devote time and effort to filtration only to pump into a non-sterile tank. And (I know the equipment list is getting long now!) but maybe a means to generate nitrogen? Gas cylinders can get you quite a long way, but you'll be running them empty fast if you want to sparge tanks on the 100s of gallon scale.

My suggestion of lenticular filters was based mainly on my experience - I haven't used plate and frame filters. Scott labs has a nice summary of some of the benefits of lenticular filter modules. (They are a great source of technical help, BTW, either by email or over the phone)