Newb with newb mistakes and newb questions

[vinny]

That's a ton of head space. You should address it ASAP. I would use a 3 gallon carboy and a gallon jug.

 

[ChuckD]

3 gallons! Got 4 of liquid in a 7 gallon bucket fermenter.

That’s not head space. It’s just unprotected wine!

After the bulk of fermentation is done, you need to get it into a secondary fermenter where you can exclude oxygen. A three gallon carboy or three one-gallon jugs would work.

 

[jeffersonmueller]

Hopefully going to have several 1 gallon Gallo bottles by Monday. I’ll transfer pronto.

What’s with the notion of “eau de”alcohol protecting the surface? My term, but I can’t recall where I read that idea. Of course, whoever mentioned it probably wasn’t expecting such excess space.

Thanks again

 

[Ajmassa]

Hopefully going to have several 1 gallon Gallo bottles by Monday. I’ll transfer pronto.

What’s with the notion of “eau de”alcohol protecting the surface? My term, but I can’t recall where I read that idea. Of course, whoever mentioned it probably wasn’t expecting such excess space.

Thanks again

for reference - after fermentation it’s loaded w co2. Pressing releases a lot. Usually most grape winemakers will only let headspace fly in that tiny window of time after pressing before racking off the gross Lees. Anywhere from a day to a week. That’s it. & In glass or barrels or sealed fermentation things. Not buckets typically Full vessels after that.
Could get away with longer but not worth the risk. I learned this the hard way.

I think of protection in 3 levels.
-First the co2 protects.
-then free so2 protects after co2 is gone. (Whether natural so2 from fermentation or added so2).
-when free so2 all bound up the final line of defense is Full vessels.

(natural protection like abv & acids help. like- low acid wine will oxidize quicker I think. But I view these as extra help. Not to rely on it tho)
And more surface area exposed and more headspace in container the more o2 is introduced & the quicker it can deteriorate

Monday should be cool tho. But just don’t get lazy and push it too long! Good luck

 

[winemaker81]

So - degassing naturally, this could be several months before I need to worry about headspace?

1 to 4 weeks, max. The danger of oxidation is that when you detect it, it's too late. Always err on the side of caution.

3 gallons! Got 4 of liquid in a 7 gallon bucket fermenter.

We have a huge communication gap. Headspace is in a sealed container, not a primary fermenter. If fermentation is complete, you need to move the wine into secondary storage, such as one 3 gallon carboy and one 1 US gallon jug, or four 1 gallon carboys.

EDIT: I replied without realizing there were other replies. All good advice.

 

[jeffersonmueller]

Thanks! Hopefully I haven’t pushed it too long to by now anyway. But flavor has been agreeable thus far.

 

[jeffersonmueller]

1 to 4 weeks, max. The danger of oxidation is that when you detect it, it's too late. Always err on the side of caution.


We have a huge communication gap. Headspace is in a sealed container, not a primary fermenter. If fermentation is complete, you need to move the wine into secondary storage, such as one 3 gallon carboy and one 1 US gallon jug, or four 1 gallon carboys.

EDIT: I replied without realizing there were other replies. All good advice.

“Sealed” - with or without airlock?

 

[ChuckD]

“Sealed” - with or without airlock?

With an air lock

If you don’t have enough of them a loose cap will work until you can get more airlocks. It’s still probably off gassing a little CO2

 

[jeffersonmueller]

With an air lock

If you don’t have enough of them a loose cap will work until you can get more airlocks. It’s still probably off gassing a little CO2

Thanks. That’s what I thought, and it has been “sealed with an airlock” but obviously I’ve been playing with “air” having so much space in the vessel and, I’d presume so much “surface area” is less than ideal as well. I’ll remedy the situation pronto.

Hopefully someone else is learning from my ignorance too!

 

[BigDaveK]

3 gallons! Got 4 of liquid in a 7 gallon bucket fermenter.

Whoa! That's a lot!

If I'm understanding what you're doing, are you using a lid with an airlock on the bucket? I hope you get the Gallo bottles! Glass would be preferred but I got a bunch of 2 gallon buckets with lids (for free!) from a bakery. So many of their ingredients come in buckets. It wouldn't take much to add a grommet and airlock.

You'll do fine. Don't confuse ignorance with lack of experience!! Everyone here had to start somewhere.

 

[jeffersonmueller]

Whoa! That's a lot!

If I'm understanding what you're doing, are you using a lid with an airlock on the bucket? I hope you get the Gallo bottles! Glass would be preferred but I got a bunch of 2 gallon buckets with lids (for free!) from a bakery. So many of their ingredients come in buckets. It wouldn't take much to add a grommet and airlock.

You'll do fine. Don't confuse ignorance with lack of experience!! Everyone here had to start somewhere.

That’s right - bucket + lid w airlock. I’ve got a good shape 5 gallon bucket I could transfer to but it seems a gallon of air would only be a marginal improvement.

You got me on “ignorance” - I generally don’t use that word for lack of experience but in this case I think I knew not to keep it all in buckets but rather get it to a smaller vessel. So, a little bit of inexperience and a little bit of ignorance may both be contributing to this current circumstance.

I’ll get to smaller glass gallons shortly

 

[ChuckD]

Thanks. That’s what I thought, and it has been “sealed with an airlock” but obviously I’ve been playing with “air” having so much space in the vessel and, I’d presume so much “surface area” is less than ideal as well. I’ll remedy the situation pronto.

Hopefully someone else is learning from my ignorance too!

Exactly. If your bucket has a 16” diameter you have over 200 square inches of exposure and the CO2 off gassing will never fill the gallons of space. With a jug or carboy filled to the neck you will have 2-3 square inches of exposure and a tiny volume that will be filled with CO2 in short order.

 

[BigDaveK]

That’s right - bucket + lid w airlock. I’ve got a good shape 5 gallon bucket I could transfer to but it seems a gallon of air would only be a marginal improvement.

I’ll get to smaller glass gallons shortly

Surface area is an issue, of course, but so is the volume. A gallon of volume has a bit less than quart of oxygen that can potentially be absorbed, whereas 3 gallons has a bit less than 3 quarts. Yeah, I'm knit-picking a little.

I've had crazy remedies to reduce headspace volume like balloons or laying a piece of plastic wrap on top of the wine to reduce contact. Never used them, just thought experiments.

BTW, it's been on my list so a couple days ago I started a gallon of ginger wine. Still in primary. I used 6 oz of ginger and half white sugar and half brown sugar. Too early to tell but I think in the future I may increase the ginger and brown sugar. It smells and tastes really good so far.

 

[winemaker81]

@jeffersonmueller, go to MoreWine! and download their red and white wine making manuals. Do NOT try to read them cover to cover -- it's too much to absorb at once. Skim the white manual to get an overview, and then do the same for the red -- the differences for reds are mostly up front. Later go back and read in detail.

https://morewinemaking.com/content/winemanuals

That’s right - bucket + lid w airlock. I’ve got a good shape 5 gallon bucket I could transfer to but it seems a gallon of air would only be a marginal improvement.

It's not an improvement, just a placebo. The wine will oxidize with that much headspace. I allow 1" to 3" of headspace in a carboy, with my typical being 1-1/4" to 1-3/4". In the following picture all headspaces are 1-1/4" to 1-1/2":



Many moons ago a customer had a wine going great (I co-owned a LHBS), Niagara IIRC. She bought the juice in Oct, and everything was going great. I didn't see her over Christmas that year, and she came back in the shop in February wine a sample. Her wine was oxidized.

She and her husband had been drinking from the carboy -- they apparently missed the "bottling" part. I recommended she hit it with K-meta, bottle, and use it up.

Oxidation is like a car accident -- it's best handled by avoiding it.

Hopefully someone else is learning from my ignorance too!

This thread is a good illustration of 2 points: 1) when giving advice, ensure the recipient understands. and 2) Keep asking questions!!!

"Ignorance" is the most appropriate word.

ignorance
ĭg′nər-əns
noun
The condition of being uneducated, unaware, or uninformed.

When I was a kid, "you're ignorant!" was a put down uttered by ignorant children. But the reality is everyone is ignorant about many things. This condition is easily changed by learning.

 

[gmac52]

Don't buy the $10 amazon one... It's junk.

Any recommendation on brand?

 

[vinny]

Any recommendation on brand?

I haven't bought a second one. Just the Amazon one that I can't use

 

[BigDaveK]

This thread is a good illustration of 2 points: 1) when giving advice, ensure the recipient understands. and 2) Keep asking questions!!!

"Ignorance" is the most appropriate word.

ignorance
ĭg′nər-əns
noun
The condition of being uneducated, unaware, or uninformed.

OK, I'm going to split hairs..
"Ignorance" may be the correct word but it may be a permanent state. If one doesn't make the effort to acquire knowledge, well then I guess more derogatory descriptive words would be in order.

"Lack of experience" on the other hand implies the rudimentary knowledge is there but the application needs work. Plus, it sounds better.

 

[jeffersonmueller]

I was thinking that I was actually ignoring the carboy vs bucket question rather than addressing it early on, thinking rather that I was set as I had a vessel that was big enough.

Now I’ve learned. Thanks for the education and patience.

 

[ChuckD]

Any recommendation on brand?

It’s come up in several posts. I have the Apera pH60, as do several others here. A quality meter with a full kit and simple instructions for $81 on Amazon. It was about $50 when I bought it.

 

[G259]

"Lack of experience" on the other hand implies the rudimentary knowledge is there but the application needs work. Plus, it sounds better.


My thoughts exactly!