Oak Chips and cubes (sanatization)

[kuziwk]

Hi Guys,

I’m just wondering what most do for oak chips in the primary and cubes in the secondary. Typically i just toss the oak chips in the primary without anything else, I’ve been doing this for years with no issues. Once fermentation is done thats when more attention has be given to sanitization, with the oak cubes i like to put them in a zip lock and spray some sulfites for 5 minutes or so. What does everyone else do?

 

[cmason1957]

Hi Guys,

I’m just wondering what most do for oak chips in the primary and cubes in the secondary. Typically i just toss the oak chips in the primary without anything else, I’ve been doing this for years with no issues. Once fermentation is done thats when more attention has be given to sanitization, with the oak cubes i like to put them in a zip lock and spray some sulfites for 5 minutes or so. What does everyone else do?

I take them out of the bag, maybe spritz them, maybe not and put them into my carboy.

 

[Johnd]

Hi Guys,

I’m just wondering what most do for oak chips in the primary and cubes in the secondary. Typically i just toss the oak chips in the primary without anything else, I’ve been doing this for years with no issues. Once fermentation is done thats when more attention has be given to sanitization, with the oak cubes i like to put them in a zip lock and spray some sulfites for 5 minutes or so. What does everyone else do?

Unless they've been exposed to something that concerns me, I just open the bag and dump 'em in. Otherwise, a little K-meta spritz from the bottle, then dump 'em in.

 

[Ajmassa]

Hi Guys,

I’m just wondering what most do for oak chips in the primary and cubes in the secondary. Typically i just toss the oak chips in the primary without anything else, I’ve been doing this for years with no issues. Once fermentation is done thats when more attention has be given to sanitization, with the oak cubes i like to put them in a zip lock and spray some sulfites for 5 minutes or so. What does everyone else do?

Same mindset here with primary. Open bag. Dump em in. Oak in aging I keep them in the factory bags till use. I’ve rinsed them off with tap water a couple times. But mainly they just go right in knowing my wine is properly sulfited.

 

[Ignoble Grape]

Okay - So I'm thinking of adding oak chips to my primary for fresh grapes this year. It could help decrease the number of rackings overall, don't have to worry about sanitizing, and I wouldn't have to divy up and measure chips amongst all the carboys. Is this what ya'll are doing?

 

[Ajmassa]

Okay - So I'm thinking of adding oak chips to my primary for fresh grapes this year. It could help decrease the number of rackings overall, don't have to worry about sanitizing, and I wouldn't have to divy up and measure chips amongst all the carboys. Is this what ya'll are doing?

sounds like your mind is about to be blown. At least mine was when I first learned this. It’s tough because it’s not directly mentioned often

Adding oak in primary is completely different than adding oak during aging. Even if same exact oak used.
oak in primary = benefits body/structure and color retention. NO OAK ESSENCE
Oak in aging = to retain that barrel aged oak feel.


I’ll do my best to explain.
During fermentation the wine is consuming/binding to accessible tannins. Tannins are in grape skins as well as oak. Making wine from grapes or skins packs in kits gives the fermentation more tannins. This helps the wine develop more body/structure/mouthfeel/whatever. Just helps fill the wine out. Also is great for retaining color

unfortunately not all available tannins are used. Some always become bound up somehow in the process.— because “science”. So adding additional tannins helps the wine get as much as possible. These additions are often called “sacrificial tannin”. Adding them while knowing some will become bound and unused but we are freeing up other tannins present which would have become bound w/o our sacrificial tannin addition

Oak in primary is serving that barrel aged goal. To get that oak essence which not obtained from oak in primary.

the smaller the oak is the easier it is for the wine to consume it. Primary is best to use dust orvery small chips.
Aging oak you get more out of cubes than chips. And sticks or spirals more than cubes. (Also easier to remove)

 

[JoP]

Okay - So I'm thinking of adding oak chips to my primary for fresh grapes this year. It could help decrease the number of rackings overall, don't have to worry about sanitizing, and I wouldn't have to divy up and measure chips amongst all the carboys. Is this what ya'll are doing?

I never considered adding oak chips or cubes to a primary fermentation vessel, because I don’t see a practical benefit.

You can do it for white wine, but I like my whites less oaked or not at all.

For red wine with the skins in, it is a nonstarter.

 

[winemaker81]

Overall, I agree with AJ. My only point of difference is that cubes, staves, and spirals are easier to control in aging due to a consistent surface area in each type. Chips have a larger surface area which is not calculable, so long term aging is a crap shoot.

Oak during fermentation is a short-term, intensive process.

Last fall I added 8 oz chips to each of 180 lb batches of Malbec, Merlot, and Zinfandel. After pressing I started a second run on the pomace of each. The 3 second runs were combined into a single batch.

Those that have tasted the 2nd run, which is in a 55 liter barrel, really like it and have no clue it's a 2nd run wine. It is lighter bodied than the 1st runs, but has a strong flavor and nose. Some of that may be due to barrel aging, some may be due to the wine fermenting on oak chips that were part of the 1st run, in contact with the pomace for 2 weeks.

I lack the resources to execute a more definitive test so a lot of this is guess work.

 

[Ignoble Grape]

Overall, I agree with AJ. My only point of difference is that cubes, staves, and spirals are easier to control in aging due to a consistent surface area in each type. Chips have a larger surface area which is not calculable, so long term aging is a crap shoot.

Oak during fermentation is a short-term, intensive process.

Last fall I added 8 oz chips to each of 180 lb batches of Malbec, Merlot, and Zinfandel. After pressing I started a second run on the pomace of each. The 3 second runs were combined into a single batch.

Those that have tasted the 2nd run, which is in a 55 liter barrel, really like it and have no clue it's a 2nd run wine. It is lighter bodied than the 1st runs, but has a strong flavor and nose. Some of that may be due to barrel aging, some may be due to the wine fermenting on oak chips that were part of the 1st run, in contact with the pomace for 2 weeks.

I lack the resources to execute a more definitive test so a lot of this is guess work.

Interesting annecdote.
I think I'm going to give this a try and see where it takes me.

 

[winemaker81]

Some folk dismiss second run wines, but for the cost of 2.25 # sugar per gallon + additives, you extend your wine by 50%. The guys that taught me said, "this is what you drink while the first run is aging."

When I pressed the second run, I pressed hard enough to fill the barrel + topup. Then I hard pressed the pomace and kept it separate. The Squeezins' (hard pressed) was originally much harsher, but it's mellowed a lot. Those tasting it do not realize that both second runs are the same wine -- the hard pressing makes that much difference.

This fall I'm going to do what one of my teachers did -- lightly press the first run, then start the second run. Lightly press the second run. Then hard press the pomace, and add 2/3 to the first run and 1/3 to the second run. His wines were honestly amazing for depth of body and color.

 

[bkisel]

This is my first time using cubes... I'm making a WE Super Tuscan kit. The instructions just have me putting the dust bag and chip bag of oak into primary without any other instructions (though I put them into the cheese cloth bag along with the grape skins). The third bag which is a bag of French oak cubes has no special instructions - just add to the carboy from the bag for clearing phase. No special rinsing or anything like that.

 

[cmason1957]

This is my first time using cubes... I'm making a WE Super Tuscan kit. The instructions just have me putting the dust bag and chip bag of oak into primary without any other instructions (though I put them into the cheese cloth bag along with the grape skins). The third bag which is a bag of French oak cubes has no special instructions - just add to the carboy from the bag for clearing phase. No special rinsing or anything like that.

Yes on both accounts, you read the directions correctly. However, I always give them at least a spritz of kmeta, just because everything that touches the wine gets some sanitizing. And I put the chips and sawdust into the bag add well, however it doesn't really stay there.

 

[JoP]

I never considered adding oak chips or cubes to a primary fermentation vessel, because I don’t see a practical benefit.

You can do it for white wine, but I like my whites less oaked or not at all.

For red wine with the skins in, it is a nonstarter.

Adding to my comments

It seems that some of you add oak chips or cubes to red wine primary fermentation and I’m curious if you remove them before pressing and if yes, how?

Thanks

 

[cmason1957]

I sometimes add oak chips to red wine primary ferment for added tannin, when doing lower tannin hybrid grapes. I just leave them in the mix and press with them in there, they are small enough to not matter all that much.

 

[JoP]

I sometimes add oak chips to red wine primary ferment for added tannin, when doing lower tannin hybrid grapes. I just leave them in the mix and press with them in there, they are small enough to not matter all that much.

Oak chips may work with basket presses, but since I use a bladder press, I’m afraid that it may perforate the bladder.

Also, if you have grapes with medium to high tannin levels, you may end up with crushed seeds and too much tannin.

 

[FermentoSapiens]

If its dust or chips for the primary I just put it in. If chips or cubes for secondary or aging I give it some mix of wodka and my own wine. Maybe not necessary but is a routine I have.