Oak opinion; to oak or too much oak

[YoungsBlock19]

I have glass carboys of both Syrah and Barbera. In past years I've used light-toasted staves, one per carboy, for the 10 months (or so) aging period. This year I went with two medium-toasted staves in each varietal. What are your opinions about the quantity, the toast, and how long the staves should be used? Just curious. Won't substitute opinions for actual tasting, but would love to draw on the communal experience to form a baseline of what to expect.

Appreciate any input. Cheers!

 

[cmason1957]

Oak is such a personalized thing. I would think that the Syrah would love to have oak, it can be such a big thing. Barbera, for me, less oak is better. I haven't ever used staves, so I don't have much to add about amount of time and how many.

 

[justsipn]

10 months? Wow.

I’m new to this so don’t take that as me saying you did it wrong.

I’ve oaked a Malbec, Shiraz and Cab. But, the instructions only said to use one stave for 3 months.

Now I’m interested in other people’s input.

 

[jburtner]

Spirals give it up much quicker. A stave will take a bit longer due to the geometry but in this case size does matter lol... How big are those staves? I cut staves down to about 4-5" and maybe 1/2 to 3/4" square and use one or two but I've also used longer ones to keep it in one piece and like that too..

 

[ChuckD]

Ok so this might seem like a dumb question but I’m newbie here. I have a spiral to put in my wild grape carboy and I’ve been thinking . Will it float or sink? How do I get it out when I think it’s had enough? Rack the wine? Fish it out with a coat hanger? Tie a piece of fishing line to it and leave it hang outside the carboy? No post or book I have read explains
This detail.

 

[mainshipfred]

They float in the beginning but eventually do sink. I tie fishing line to them and it's easy to get out. The staves only give off oak for so long so leaving them in for 10 months is probably the same as 3 months.

 

[winemaker81]

What are your opinions about the quantity, the toast, and how long the staves should be used?

I agree with Craig (@cmason1957) that advising is tough, as your tastes are unknown to me and probably different from mine. I like oak as an accent, not a primary flavor. And the amount of oak a given varietal can handle differs greatly.

Medium toast will impart nuttier, heavier flavors than the light toast, which is fruitier/sweeter flavors. Changing the toast is a significant change in the flavor profile.

I suggest you pull one of the staves from each carboy, wrap them in plastic, and put in the freezer. You need to see what differences a single medium stave does to each wine. Taste each wine every 3 to 4 weeks, recording your impressions. After each tasting, read the previous records from first to last, so you can see how the wines changed. After 3 to 5 months, if you believe a wine needs more oak, replace the stave in the wine with one from the freezer.

My experience with Syrah says it can handle a lot of oak. I have no experience with Barbera so I bow to Craig's experience on that one.

I have a spiral to put in my wild grape carboy and I’ve been thinking . Will it float or sink? How do I get it out when I think it’s had enough?

As Fred (@mainshipfred) said, the oak will sink. The answer is to use the racking cane as a straw to draw the wine off the oak. Keep in mind that you may pass out from lightheadedness before you get drunk, as it takes a lot of suction to get the wine out.

In a more serious vein, I tend to use cubes, and racking is the answer. I go lighter on oak and let it set longer, so it may be in the carboy/ barrel for 5 to 10 months.

I agree that oak adjuncts give up most of their flavoring in 3 months or so, but I've experienced subtle changes through 6 months. However, I can't be positive if the oak is continuing to flavor the wine, or if the natural aging of the wine is altering the flavoring imparted by the oak, or both.

 

[ChuckD]

Thanks. Fishing line it is.

Now… how do monofilament, fluorocarbon, or braided change the flavor profile????

 

[cmason1957]

Thanks. Fishing line it is.

Now… how do monofilament, fluorocarbon, or braided change the flavor profile????

Monofilament provides a plasticized flavor profile, while fluorocarbon (if it is red) gives a hint of cinnamon and braided provides metallic. (Now to see if I can get my tongue out of my check. )

I always just use mono, since I have plenty of that, but I doubt it matters much.

 

[YoungsBlock19]

How did my oak thread get hijacked by a monofilament conversation?

 

[winemaker81]

How did my oak thread get hijacked by a monofilament conversation?

Because this is the internet!!!

The really weird thing is that we're actually still connected to the original topic ....

 

[cmason1957]

How did my oak thread get hijacked by a monofilament conversation?

Happens all the time around here, we wander somewhere, then back again. Then off to the left, then the right, then fishing line, then making jokes.

Or as my ex boss used to stuff (although he used a much more vulgar word) happens.

 

[YoungsBlock19]

Thanks, everyone for your (non-stave/filament-related ) input. Here's what I've decided to do: I had four carboys of Syrah, with two stave in each for 6 weeks. Now, one carboy has no staves, one has one stave (8.5" x 1" x .375, Morewinemaking product OAK662), and two carboys have 2 each. I will check the two-staved carboys against the others in a couple of weeks (I put the removed staves in the freezer per Winemaker81). I will then determine whether to remove staves or add to adjust the flavor. The Syrah with the two staves at six weeks was tasting pretty good at this point. Similar action taken with the Barbera: 1 carboy with 2, another with one, and one with no staves.

With this idea I think I will have the flexibility to make the right adjustments.

Again, thanks everyone for their input.

PS: I was able to fish out my staves with a SO2-cleaned coathanger that was hooked on the end. Easy to finagle the hook into the hole at end of stave. Worked like a charm without imparting that pesky monofilament aftertaste.

 

[winemaker81]

I had four carboys of Syrah, with two stave in each for 6 weeks. Now, one carboy has no staves, one has one stave (8.5" x 1" x .375, Morewinemaking product OAK662), and two carboys have 2 each. I will check the two-staved carboys against the others in a couple of weeks

IMO you have made an excellent choice. It has an element of risk as the 2 staves in 1 carboy may overoak the wine, but with 4 carboys you can dilute those carboys with the no-staves wine. This is what commercial wineries do to produce good wines. Granted, they have dozens or hundreds of barrels to blend, but it's the same concept. Keep us posted as to your results.

 

[YoungsBlock19]

OK there, winemaker81. You're bringing me around to the idea of taking out those extra staves in the 2 carboys, or at least in one of them...They can always go back in, right?

 

[ChuckD]

PS: I was able to fish out my staves with a SO2-cleaned coathanger that was hooked on the end. Easy to finagle the hook into the hole at end of stave. Worked like a charm without imparting that pesky monofilament aftertaste.

At least you remembered to post the important details

 

[winemaker81]

OK there, winemaker81. You're bringing me around to the idea of taking out those extra staves in the 2 carboys, or at least in one of them...They can always go back in, right?

Read my posts and my website. I'm really into experimentation and what you're planning is right up my alley. You'll learn a lot from this experiment.

I didn't realize you have 4 carboys to play with. This provides many options, while minimizing risk as you can blend results.

One of my frequent comments, stated tongue-in-cheek, is that it is FAR easier to add more to wine than to remove ...

 

[CDrew]

My advice, which I have followed like religion since the 2018 over-oak debacle is to go super light on the oak. Like half what you think you want. Taste after 2 months. Remove early. Never go beyond medium toast. My 2018 is still overoaked even though it's been slowly dying down and is now OK. My 2020, on the other hand, is tasting awesome, with very light oak. Less is more here.

With regards to monofiliment, the #5 tippet works great. Braid would be too hard to sterilize. Lol.

 

[YoungsBlock19]

Thanks, CDrew.
winemaker81, what's your website url? Would like to see what else you're doing.

 

[winemaker81]

winemaker81, what's your website url? Would like to see what else you're doing.

It's in my sig.

https://wine.bkfazekas.com/