Offered a job as a winemaker, but at a price...

[Ty520]

So I was just offered an opportunity to go pro, and be a head winemaker (in training for a probationary period) for a local winery. But I would incur a 15% pay cut.

a lot of people, myself included, would probably initially say, "hell ya!" if it were a hypothetical, but now that it is real, working it into a budget is scary, especially with inflation and the unsteady state of the economy.

I feel like i would feel guilty for taking a dream job if it meant possibly making it hard(er) financially for my family, with a mortgage, 2 kids in daycare...

My current career is relatively easy going, and pays well with regular and predictable pay increases, but i just don't care about the work any more.

thoughts?

 

[ChuckD]

but i just don't care about the work any more.

This statement carries a lot of weight in my book. I don’t think I could spend 40 hours a week at a job I didn’t care about. How many years of working do you have left?

What are the prospects when you are the head winemaker? Are there a lot of wineries in your area? Can you consult on the side for your old job?

ETA. I’m not discounting the pay cut… 15% is significant. What does your spouse think?

Also, do you have formal training in the craft or are you self taught?

 

[winechef]

if after the probationary period, is their room for growth in. their company, do you get profit sharing, is there investment potential.

if making a passion, (I hate the word hobby) into a job for your own its rewarding, but working for someone else is still just another job.

if you can have creative control, push the brand and help it expand that's worth it but if just making the product the owner suggests and demands will definitely rob the soul like any other job.

watch the movie chef, it might help you decide

 

[Ty520]

if after the probationary period, is their room for growth in. their company, do you get profit sharing, is there investment potential.

if making a passion, (I hate the word hobby) into a job for your own its rewarding, but working for someone else is still just another job.

if you can have creative control, push the brand and help it expand that's worth it but if just making the product the owner suggests and demands will definitely rob the soul like any other job.

watch the movie chef, it might help you decide

There would be yearly evaluations, performance bonuses, and there was talk about future partial ownership.

I would have increasing input.

The winery has been open about 4 years and has an average yearly growth rate of 20% which is phenomenal- of course this will eventually show, but it beats many of the other wineries in the AVA by quite a bit

 

[winechef]

Then yes initially take a paycut but could increase more later. 15% isn't too bad, just be frugal for 6 months.

also make a daily blog updating your progress and difficulties becoming a master wine maker. that might go viral, chasing your dreams, it will inspire others.


also as a dad you are showing a real role model for your children. we want our kids to chase and fulfill their potential, so should you.

have a family meeting and hear from them, if they believe in you, then they will be willing to sacrifice too.

I really hope you have great success

 

[Rice_Guy]

* wine making is farming, there can be long hours. Basically you work till the task is done. You need your wife’s buy in.
* how much training do you have? Wine making is engineering, chemistry, microbiology, QA, food laws, PR. If you are low in some areas you will need to pick up the skills.
* where is the current head wine maker in his/ her career? How old are the current ownership. Where do the current ownership want to be in ten years? twenty ? Are there other back up wineries to work at?
* how good are you at tasting? This is a food, the customer will eat it,
* what are the sales? what is the debt load? staffing level? what level of automation is the bottling line? (labor) How is the layout? Land locked etc?
* do you like being in that region? How close are family?

 

[FlamingoEmporium]

You hate what you are doing now. Easy to make 15% cut to your lifestyle to do something you love. Simplify your life and be happy.

 

[winemaker81]

One question not yet asked -- you love winemaking as a hobby. Will you still love it when it's a job, not recreation?

Regarding your budget, make a real projected budget, including cutting all extraneous expenses. Be realistic and not optimistic; lean towards pessimism in your planning. Six months from now is a very bad time to realize you were too optimistic.

Don't let dissatisfaction with your current job drive you. IMO that's actually the worst reason to jump into a new field. Yes, it's a factor, but don't put it in the driver's seat, since there are many safer things you can do, career-wise.

If after full consideration you believe this to be a good choice? Great! Do it!

There would be yearly evaluations, performance bonuses, and there was talk about future partial ownership.

Emphasis mine.

You didn't say how well you know the winery owners, nor if there is an existing relationship. Keep in mind this is business, and "talk" doesn't mean anything. You need to know what the owners' plans are, and you need to get things in writing as part of your employment contract.

For annual evaluations, ask what the criteria is. You need to know their expectations and how you will be judged. What is the size of the performance bonuses (may be set $$$ or a percentage of some value), and what are they based one, e.g., total profits, growth, etc.?

Ownership? How much, what time frame, and what is the criteria?

Please note you want to be pleasant and not confrontational in these discussions. I'd express myself as concerned for my family, and needing to know where things will be going.

Keep in mind that it's entirely possible the owners haven't thought this through, either. Your questions may help them refine their plans.

While the intent is to protect yourself, you can also make yourself more valuable by providing input for their overall projected business plan. Sell yourself as not just a winemaker, but as a potential integral part of the overall growth.

--

If you take the job, examine your own knowledge and look for opportunities for training. There are a lot of online classes and the more you know, the more valuable you are.

 

[Greg Corey]

I will echo @winemaker81 regarding "you love winemaking as a hobby. Will you still love it when it's a job, not recreation?"

I had the opportunity to do this same thing except as a woodworking instructor (my ultimate dream is to start a vineyard and winery - more on that below). I was at a truly lousy job that paid really well but was making me a horrible father and husband. I was ready for anything else! However, as I was making plans to do this switch, making budgets etc, I got approached about starting another software company with some people I really respected. I am now super satisfied in my work and living a nice balance in my work/hobby life (woodworking while wine ferments is a joyous rhythm). I am very very glad I didn't jump ship when I did.

My plan, as I alluded to, is to start a vineyard and winery, but I will do it on my own terms, in my own time, as my savings/investments allow. I'm an ultra cautious person, and, ultimately, teaching woodworking would have been great but not my ultimate dream.

Also, as someone who has been the interviewer and interviewee many many times, definitely don't hesitate to dig into specifics of money, duties, responsibilities, time expectations, ownership etc. These are absolute requirements to have in hand and if they don't have clear answers on any of these, be very suspicious but if they can produce details on margins, revenue, market reports, marketing efforts (if any), etc, then I say 1. look at the above question and then 2. look at the time horizon for more comfortable pay - decide what % decrease would be more comfortable (maybe 10% is doable while 15% is uncomfortable), and target that with the owners of the winery as a minimum after 1 year or something like that.

Good luck! As someone on the outside I'm ultra jealous but it's a big decision

 

[Ty520]

all good points. we have discussed duties and responsibilities, growth, revenue, etc. as mentioned ,they are growing at a rate of 20%+ a year; there are annual evaluations and performance bonuses (up to 15% of salary).

they are a small mom and pop startup, and actually had to do some research to write up the offer before they made it - other employees outside of the family have all essentially been hourly labor, and I would be their first salaried employee.

My wife has a good job with the fedguv, with multiple automatic, generous raises on the horizon.

As it is now, i am pretty much completely jaded about my entire profession; everyone in my family can see and feel it - no offices in my city i would really even want to go over to if offered; starting up my own firm that could fulfill my visions and joys would require absolutely godly amounts of capital, along with major high profile connections to get traction. (in my line of work, "who you know" is essentially what makes your name). I also have a couple small consultancies developing in the background - difficult enough to get momentum on those alone.

 

[vinny]

I can't speak for the 15% wage decrease. That is something you have to weigh out with current excess cash, savings, and personal comfort levels.

I will say that when I was 30 I read two books. The Answer, and Rich Dad, Poor Dad. They changed my perspective. Two key statements. Don't work for money. And, It is not about how much you make, it is how much you keep. You mentioned a budget so hopefully you are working savings into your plans, but assets are the best way to keep your earnings, and building assets is easiest in business ownership.

I was in Vancouver when I read the books, and I was tired of all of it. I pulled out and moved to Alberta. I have always been in the trades so I started a painting business. I met a man and did some work for him and he taught me the skills to start the business I am running now. I am VERY cautious and started with a $30,000 (debt) investment which seemed HUGE at the time. I put any extra painting money onto the debt, and used any profits to build the business. Slowly building on that, I now own the 3rd largest business of it's kind in Alberta (Which is why I am being criptic as to what it is) and I am mostly retired at 42.

My perspective is that a job is working for money. It's a safe and dependable avenue to make a living, but not a route to financial freedom. What I see as value in this opportunity is to move out a job that isn't rewarding you in any way, and to learn some skills that will offer you more life choices.

If there are opportunities to grow into company shares or profit sharing, that is a serious consideration. There is also the opportunity to branch out on your own someday.

As mentioned above, I would ask about the potential stakes in the company. If I offered that to someone I wouldn't do it without intent and an idea of how it could work. Were you to approach me and say OK, I am interested, but I am taking a 15% pay cut right now, I would respect your consideration and be open to a thought process as follows.

I am very passionate about this, that makes me excited to jump in, but taking the hit now is only worth it if the mentioned offer pays out in the future. Can we put it in writing? I start on probation, if I don't make the cut, I'm out. No losses for you, but if it works out can we outline an incentive plan with some timelines?

Even if that involves expectations from you. Probation ends, you get nothing. You complete a higher level of training, or settle into the position, you get a pay increase. Sales increase, a specific amount of time passes, you get blank.. No hard feelings if there is a laid out agreement, and they don't count for anything without a contract. It is business, and I think it's a conversation to have.

The other consideration is do you always want to be the winemaker at someone else's winery, or do you see yourself branching out? You can buy a home with land, existing grapes, or plant them. Facilities on site, build them, rent/own offsite. There are ways to mitigate risk and investment and move yourself into a stronger position.

I could go on and on, but the serious thing to ask yourself is what is in this for you? What do you want out of it in the long run? If it is just a job, then don't go on false promises, see if there is any real grit to the offer. If you want to use the skills to build something of your own, start with the knowledge and start dreaming now.

Whether you believe you can or you can't, you are right... There is so much more truth in this statement than most people realize. This is an opportunity, but don't limit yourself just to the small view that is being offered. Use it to make some life goals and long term plans.

 

[Rice_Guy]

,,,, you can also make yourself more valuable by providing input for their overall projected business plan. Sell yourself as not just a winemaker, but as a potential integral part of the overall growth.

a winery that survives is a business, yes the skills of what to do are important but it all pushes toward cash flow, ,,, cost of goods

 

[winemaker81]

all good points. we have discussed duties and responsibilities, growth, revenue, etc. as mentioned ,they are growing at a rate of 20%+ a year; there are annual evaluations and performance bonuses (up to 15% of salary).

It's sounding like this is a good opportunity. If you can survive the up front pay cut, the end of the first year will see you nearly back to normal, so surviving that year (financially) is the key. [Yes, I'm stating the obvious.]

Are the owners doing market research and sales analysis? "Why?" is my favorite question -- knowing which wines sell best and least, and figuring out why they sell will point towards future wine varietal and style choices.

You probably thought of this already, but it's better to hear something one time too many than one time too few ...

Assuming you take the job, start a thread to talk about your experiences, or just continue this one. It may be helpful to others considering going pro and/or opening a winery. Yeah, you have to be cautious about exposing private information, but there's a lot that isn't sensitive that you can talk about.

 

[vinny]

all good points. we have discussed duties and responsibilities, growth, revenue, etc. as mentioned ,they are growing at a rate of 20%+ a year; there are annual evaluations and performance bonuses (up to 15% of salary).

they are a small mom and pop startup, and actually had to do some research to write up the offer before they made it - other employees outside of the family have all essentially been hourly labor, and I would be their first salaried employee.

My wife has a good job with the fedguv, with multiple automatic, generous raises on the horizon.

As it is now, i am pretty much completely jaded about my entire profession; everyone in my family can see and feel it - no offices in my city i would really even want to go over to if offered; starting up my own firm that could fulfill my visions and joys would require absolutely godly amounts of capital, along with major high profile connections to get traction. (in my line of work, "who you know" is essentially what makes your name). I also have a couple small consultancies developing in the background - difficult enough to get momentum on those alone.

This was written while I was typing my response. When I started my business I created my own ledger and did my own books to learn the basics. I wrote out a business plan. I evaluated the market and competition. I considered every aspect of my business, including customer needs and wants. 6 months after I opened the business a man who had been to my friends business for his work thought it would be fun to do and started a similar company. They never took it serious, they bought the equipment they thought was neat, not what met industry standards, or profitability requirements. 10 years later they still have day jobs and actually moved to be closer to where he works, where I could never consider moving my company. My customer base is mostly local. I would be starting over. The only difference between the levels of success was my business evaluations and understanding of what sells vs how cool they wanted their company to look.

The fact that they are doing evaluations speaks to me. It means they are running a business and not getting by on blind luck. A 20% market increase is not insignificant. It demonstrates quality product and market knowledge. I'm just saying, you don't want to jump on to a sinking ship, but it sounds like they have built a solid foundation.

As it is now, i am pretty much completely jaded about my entire profession; everyone in my family can see and feel it

This is the main reason I am replying, though. Don't work for money is a double edged statement for me. If you want out of the 9-5 you need assets that make money while you work to grow them. For me, the bigger meaning in the statement is that to build something great, you need passion! If you are working 8+ hours a day just for the money. If you are spending a good portion of the week just getting the job done, are you really living?

Is the 15% even worth considering if you can increase your enthusiasm for life? Bring your family closer because you have motivation to share your time, instead of always winding down, or shaking off the day. If the whole family can feel it, your whole life will change with the excitement of doing something you are passionate about. Is grinding through every day worth the money?

For me the answer is a hard no. I picked up and moved because no matter what job I had I was slugging through the day. I didn't want the car that I needed to pay for to get to the job that I didn't want, to live in a city that gave me no opportunity for the life I wanted.

I understand all of the concerns in today's world. Rising costs, interest rates, etc. Is 15% going to save you from it? If it all goes **** up, can you get back into a similar position that you have now. If you have something to fall back on the financial risk is that much lower, then the biggest worry is missing this opportunity. If you can fall back to your current position, what do you really have to lose?

One of my biggest driving factors is how I am going to look back at my life when I am 80. I don't want regrets, and I would rather say at least I was happy, than I wish I hadn't played it so safe.

I can't make the decision for you, and I don't mean to. I am just trying to speak to what you already know and feel, so you can give yourself permission to make the choice that is right for you. Not the safe one, or the reckless one, but the one that speaks to who you are and what you really want out of life.

 

[Ty520]

This was written while I was typing my response. When I started my business I created my own ledger and did my own books to learn the basics. I wrote out a business plan. I evaluated the market and competition. I considered every aspect of my business, including customer needs and wants. 6 months after I opened the business a man who had been to my friends business for his work thought it would be fun to do and started a similar company. They never took it serious, they bought the equipment they thought was neat, not what met industry standards, or profitability requirements. 10 years later they still have day jobs and actually moved to be closer to where he works, where I could never consider moving my company. My customer base is mostly local. I would be starting over. The only difference between the levels of success was my business evaluations and understanding of what sells vs how cool they wanted their company to look.

The fact that they are doing evaluations speaks to me. It means they are running a business and not getting by on blind luck. A 20% market increase is not insignificant. It demonstrates quality product and market knowledge. I'm just saying, you don't want to jump on to a sinking ship, but it sounds like they have built a solid foundation.



This is the main reason I am replying, though. Don't work for money is a double edged statement for me. If you want out of the 9-5 you need assets that make money while you work to grow them. For me, the bigger meaning in the statement is that to build something great, you need passion! If you are working 8+ hours a day just for the money. If you are spending a good portion of the week just getting the job done, are you really living?

Is the 15% even worth considering if you can increase your enthusiasm for life? Bring your family closer because you have motivation to share your time, instead of always winding down, or shaking off the day. If the whole family can feel it, your whole life will change with the excitement of doing something you are passionate about. Is grinding through every day worth the money?

For me the answer is a hard no. I picked up and moved because no matter what job I had I was slugging through the day. I didn't want the car that I needed to pay for to get to the job that I didn't want, to live in a city that gave me no opportunity for the life I wanted.

I understand all of the concerns in today's world. Rising costs, interest rates, etc. Is 15% going to save you from it? If it all goes **** up, can you get back into a similar position that you have now. If you have something to fall back on the financial risk is that much lower, then the biggest worry is missing this opportunity. If you can fall back to your current position, what do you really have to lose?

One of my biggest driving factors is how I am going to look back at my life when I am 80. I don't want regrets, and I would rather say at least I was happy, than I wish I hadn't played it so safe.

I can't make the decision for you, and I don't mean to. I am just trying to speak to what you already know and feel, so you can give yourself permission to make the choice that is right for you. Not the safe one, or the reckless one, but the one that speaks to who you are and what you really want out of life.

Thanks again, all.

So I have told them that I WILL take the position.

They definitely seem to be well aware of marketing. without giving too much away that would divulge what winery it is, they do have a spin that really separates them from the rest of the pack...no direct competition.

Also, as you mentioned, I have been kept awake at night lately thinking about looking back on my life when I am old and wondering if i lived a fulfilling and content experience; and to be uncomfortably honest, there have been many times recently where I definitely did NOT feel that to be true.

For some reason, I was surprised that my wife has been more excited than me, which makes me happy.

we put together a really comprehensive budget matrix and both felt pretty confident we'll be financially OK.

And one cherry on top will be that I will finally get to carve out dedicated time to get back in the gym and not sit on my butt in front of a computer for 9 plus hours a day

the idea of journaling this experience is intriguing.



...maybe I'm just having a mid-life crisis :-/

 

[Gilmango]

Thanks again, all.

So I have told them that I WILL take the position.

They definitely seem to be well aware of marketing. without giving too much away that would divulge what winery it is, they do have a spin that really separates them from the rest of the pack...no direct competition.

Also, as you mentioned, I have been kept awake at night lately thinking about looking back on my life when I am old and wondering if i lived a fulfilling and content experience; and to be uncomfortably honest, there have been many times recently where I definitely did NOT feel that to be true.

For some reason, I was surprised that my wife has been more excited than me, which makes me happy.

we put together a really comprehensive budget matrix and both felt pretty confident we'll be financially OK.

And one cherry on top will be that I will finally get to carve out dedicated time to get back in the gym and not sit on my butt in front of a computer for 9 plus hours a day

the idea of journaling this experience is intriguing.



...maybe I'm just having a mid-life crisis :-/

Congrats, please do keep us in the loop on what happens.

FWIW, I took a much larger pay cut 4 months before my wife had our first of two kids, but I honestly did it for the future kids, as my old job had long hours and high stress, whereas my new job had regular hours which allowed me to be home for dinner every night, for instance. New job also is in support of a mission which I support, whereas old job was just helping clients make money. I've never regretted making the move. Hope you will feel the same in the future.

 

[vinny]

Thanks again, all.

So I have told them that I WILL take the position.

They definitely seem to be well aware of marketing. without giving too much away that would divulge what winery it is, they do have a spin that really separates them from the rest of the pack...no direct competition.

Also, as you mentioned, I have been kept awake at night lately thinking about looking back on my life when I am old and wondering if i lived a fulfilling and content experience; and to be uncomfortably honest, there have been many times recently where I definitely did NOT feel that to be true.

For some reason, I was surprised that my wife has been more excited than me, which makes me happy.

we put together a really comprehensive budget matrix and both felt pretty confident we'll be financially OK.

And one cherry on top will be that I will finally get to carve out dedicated time to get back in the gym and not sit on my butt in front of a computer for 9 plus hours a day

the idea of journaling this experience is intriguing.



...maybe I'm just having a mid-life crisis :-/

Jobs are a societal requirement I have never been excited about. Having the courage to put your sanity and interests above money is far from a crisis.

I say you 100% made the right decision. Congratulations!

 

[Rice_Guy]

. , I was surprised that my wife has been more excited than me, , ,

The wife is looking in from outside. The wife is seeing emotions come home from work.

 

[Greg Corey]

For some reason, I was surprised that my wife has been more excited than me, which makes me happy.

This definitely helps having a supportive partner. I'm excited for you!!! Time to get in shape, mentally and physically, and work your ass off doing what you love. It's inspiring.

I'm also glad that the devil's advocate stuff didn't scare you off. I'm glad you found a decision that feels right.

Also, what even is a mid life crisis - mid life moment of clarity sounds more accurate to me. Congratulations again and I really do look forward to hearing about your journey.

 

[Ty520]

This definitely helps having a supportive partner. I'm excited for you!!! Time to get in shape, mentally and physically, and work your ass off doing what you love. It's inspiring.

I'm also glad that the devil's advocate stuff didn't scare you off. I'm glad you found a decision that feels right.

Also, what even is a mid life crisis - mid life moment of clarity sounds more accurate to me. Congratulations again and I really do look forward to hearing about your journey.

one of the reasons i decided on yes was specifically because i feel it would increase my physical and mental health.

Despite formerly being a gym rat, after Covid, a period of rough work hours, and a second child, i fell out of going to the gym; i stare at a computer for 9+ hours a day. Have really feel the toll on my body which just further peaked my anxiety...a vicious cycle.

I am one of those people who find productive physical labor in which you can clearly see the end result to be satisfying, almost meditative, and i end up sleeping much better.

Since this job will start later than i've ever had to be in an office, i can dedicate mornings to getting my @$$ back in the gym without having to wake up at 4am