Open bottle, a day later

[distancerunner]

Last week I went to an AWS Christmas party. Four wines, good food. Left there with a couple of open bottles. One was a Washington State Pinot Noir. The other a California Merlot. Both in the twenty to thirty dollar range. Both very good.

The next day at dinner I tasted them. Good, but the aromas were muted. The flavors weren't as vibrant as the night before.

I leave open bottles corked on the kitchen counter. Temp in the house is ~66°F. The granite slab counter is ~55°F.

The wine that we've made over the last four years behaves differently after opening. They're pretty good out of the bottle. But the nose and flavor are both a bit dull. Left on the counter after pouring a glass or two for a day, and sometimes as long as a week, they open up. The aromas bloom. The flavors open up.

We bulk age these wines on average for two years. They spend about a year in the bottle before we pull corks.

Any ideas as to why our wines seem to get better after opening? Is this the effect of extended "breathing?" Is breathing a thing?

 

[winemaker81]

Breathing is definitely a thing. My understanding is that the wine starts oxidizing, which in the short term alters and softens the tannins.

Like many things, the oxidation is good in a rather short time period, after which it becomes a bad thing.

 

[ibglowin]

Wine can go through "dumb" phases where they just don't show much of their selves only to come back around later. Hard to say with some commercial wines depending on their winemaking process. If it's full of tannins and young usually the more air you give it the more it opens (to an extent). I have had wines (young) that were left open (but corked stuffed in them still be quite good even after 3-4 days. This is in my cellar so they were kept cool the whole time. A glass or two may have been stolen over the time period......

 

[back2it]

I once purchased a bottle of red from a Wein Keller somewhere in the Ahr valley in Germany (as we were passing). We drank most of it as a companion to an evening meal a week later; it wasn’t as good as I thought it was going to be.

On tidying up the next morning I had a quick taste of what was left. IT WAS STUNNING! I unfortunately couldn’t finish it as I needed to drive to work and my girlfriend thew it away by the time I got home

She didn’t last long

 

[distancerunner]

Then let's reverse the question.

Why do these commercial wines go down hill quicker? Less tannin? Less aging? Are they engineered to be bottled and consumed earlier? Will they live as long?

I guess that's more than one question.

 

[winemaker81]

Then let's reverse the question.

Why do these commercial wines go down hill quicker? Less tannin? Less aging? Are they engineered to be bottled and consumed earlier? Will they live as long?

I guess that's more than one question.

It's not all commercial wines. Some are better after a half bottle is left on the counter for a day or two. I've also had a very nice Chardonnay crap out completely after 6 hours.

Something to consider is that 90% of the world's wine production is intended for consumption within 3 years. So the idea of adding more tannin, reducing the pH, jacking acid, etc., isn't part of the plan.

A lot of our membership is out of line with this -- we're producing wines that need more time, have more oomph, and survive longer after opening. We're in the 10% that are not necessarily planning on a 3 year max lifespan.

 

[Raptor99]

I have noticed quite a bit of variation as well. I seal open bottles with a vacu vin stopper and keep them in the fridge. Some commercial wines taste good for another day or two. Some taste noticeably worse by day 2. My wines usually taste reasonable okay for a day or two after opening, but some last longer than others.

I suspect that the difference might depend on how much protection they have against oxidation (kmeta, tannins, flavinoids, etc.)

 

[Hazelemere]

Our hand-destemmed uncrushed reds from grapes can be good opened even after 5 days. My guess is that they are loaded with skin tannins (type 1) and low in seed tannins (type 2). All tannins are not created equal. Oak tannin (type 3) and powdered tannin (type 4) or tea (type 5) makes the impact of tannin on ageability after exposure to oxygen even more complex. When I have the time I'll see if I can figure this out i.e. type of tannin vs oxidizability.

 

[BarrelMonkey]

Wine can go through "dumb" phases where they just don't show much of their selves only to come back around later. Hard to say with some commercial wines depending on their winemaking process. If it's full of tannins and young usually the more air you give it the more it opens (to an extent). I have had wines (young) that were left open (but corked stuffed in them still be quite good even after 3-4 days. This is in my cellar so they were kept cool the whole time. A glass or two may have been stolen over the time period......

My 2023 Syrah was bottled in September and is currently going through its 'awkward phase'. This was the first time I used sacrificial tannins and, in combination with the fact that 2/3 of it was aged in new oak, it's rather 'chewy' right now. The underlying fruit and flavor are good, however, so I'm hoping I will be rewarded for patience.

We opened a bottle last night - I love the fruit and oak notes but the tannic bite is a bit too much right now. This evening we had a glass left over and it's much, much nicer - smoother, less astringent. I'm hoping that it will be like this straight out of the bottle a year from now.

Why do these commercial wines go down hill quicker? Less tannin? Less aging? Are they engineered to be bottled and consumed earlier? Will they live as long?

I guess that's more than one question.

As @winemaker81 said I don't think you can generalize about 'commercial wines' - they can vary widely in terms of how they age and how they present at different levels of maturity, even wines of similar quality made by the same winemaking team.

I work at a winery and sometimes do tasting room duty. One of our wines (IMO) is almost always better the day after opening. Another (same varietal) loses its bright fruit over the same time period and is significantly diminished. We've started using argon to prolong the life of the open bottles and it's made a big difference for that second wine.

 

[Hazelemere]

https://winemakermag.com/article/1096-tannin-myths-and-methods

 

[bstnh1]

Last week I went to an AWS Christmas party. Four wines, good food. Left there with a couple of open bottles. One was a Washington State Pinot Noir. The other a California Merlot. Both in the twenty to thirty dollar range. Both very good.

The next day at dinner I tasted them. Good, but the aromas were muted. The flavors weren't as vibrant as the night before.

I leave open bottles corked on the kitchen counter. Temp in the house is ~66°F. The granite slab counter is ~55°F.

The wine that we've made over the last four years behaves differently after opening. They're pretty good out of the bottle. But the nose and flavor are both a bit dull. Left on the counter after pouring a glass or two for a day, and sometimes as long as a week, they open up. The aromas bloom. The flavors open up.

We bulk age these wines on average for two years. They spend about a year in the bottle before we pull corks.

Any ideas as to why our wines seem to get better after opening? Is this the effect of extended "breathing?" Is breathing a thing?

Do you leave whites out on the counter or just the reds?

 

[distancerunner]

Sometimes. If there is a lot of residual sugar usually they go in the fridge. Then try to remember to pull them an hour before consuming. Dry whites go on the counter. Wrong or right, that’s what I do.

 

[winemaker81]

Do you leave whites out on the counter or just the reds?

That makes a difference. I usually put whites in the fridge, and if a red won't be consumed the next day, it goes in as well. Depending on circumstances, I use a Vacuvin.

Interesting fact -- the Vacuvin and the original stoppers I purchased in 1988 still work fine.

 

[BarrelMonkey]

Do you leave whites out on the counter or just the reds?

Reds at room temperature, whites in the fridge.

 

[Rocky]

This is a very interesting thread, a lot of good information that I will use if I ever have a bottle that is not emptied the same day.

 

[bstnh1]

Sometimes. If there is a lot of residual sugar usually they go in the fridge. Then try to remember to pull them an hour before consuming. Dry whites go on the counter. Wrong or right, that’s what I do.

Interesting! I'll have to try it! I've always put both in the fridge after dinner. Unopened whites I have always chilled in the fridge for at least a few hours before opening.

 

[back2it]

if I ever have a bottle that is not emptied the same day

I think that's one of the scenarios where planning may be a waste of time

 

[distancerunner]

We add tannin before pitching yeast. We also use cellaring tannins and occasionally finishing tannins a couple of months before bottling.

 

[Hazelemere]

Our hand-destemmed uncrushed reds from grapes can be good opened even after 5 days. My guess is that they are loaded with skin tannins (type 1) and low in seed tannins (type 2). All tannins are not created equal. Oak tannin (type 3) and powdered tannin (type 4) or tea (type 5) makes the impact of tannin on ageability after exposure to oxygen even more complex. When I have the time I'll see if I can figure this out i.e. type of tannin vs oxidizability.

Here is my best guess on why hand-destemmed uncrushed reds from grapes last longer in the bottle after being opened:

1. skin tannins react more quickly with oxygen than seed tannins.

2. skin tannin content of wine is higher in uncrushed grape wines than crushed grape wines because they ferment more slowly due to lower pulp surface area.

3. "lasting" implies longevity of smell which you get from hand-destemmed uncrushed due to lower fermentation temperature and lower release of aroma "volatiles" since the yeast works more slowly on a low surface area must.

4. oxidizable aroma molecules are semi-protected by skin tannins which compete for oxygen, so the open bottles smell better longer.

 

[Sailor323]

Do you leave whites out on the counter or just the reds?

I prefer reds at cellar temperature (54-55F) but do leave them on the counter when opened. In really warm weather I might put them briefly in the fridge to cool them off to cellar temp. I like whites and rosés refrigerated but the fridge is too cold for them. They should be chilled to about 45F. So I keep them in the fridge but let them sit on the counter prior to drinking.