Persimmon Wine

[WannaGotobed]

Hello - first of all, this is my first time making a wine. I started a persimmon wine based on this recipe. I doubled this recipe in order to make a half gallon and used Red Star Cotes des blancs yeast. Within a couple hours, the contents spilled out of the container, resulting in lost product as seen in the first photo.

Ever since I lost that liquid, I've been concerned about the experience. I wanted to make 2 750ml bottles of wine, but the advice I've been given has been to ignore the lost liquid, then to move my wine into a secondary container around the 12~14 day mark, and use a sieve and spatula to squeeze liquid from the must to incorporate with the rest of the liquid into the secondary container. I don't have a sense of what can be done regarding the lost liquid or anything that I should be aware of right now with the current process and recipe. This project was started on January 28th, and I moved it into a second container on February 9th. I have attached a photo of when I started and another of where it's at as of today (there is a vanilla pod in the bottle that I transferred from the initial fermentation in the primary container). I still don't know if I'm heading in the right direction.

I didn't have a hydrometer to have measured the initial specific gravity, but it is guessed to have been
January 28 SG @ 1.140 (assumed measurement)
Feburary 9 SG @ ~1.051 (actual measurement)

 

[winemaker81]

Welcome to WMT!

I skimmed the blog you mentioned. Like a lot of "do it yourself" blogs, the recipe/method "works", but it's far from optimal, and a few things (such as sorbate stopping a fermentation) are wrong.

Don't feel bad about trying that one. My first wine was rhubarb, fermented in an expended beer ball (5 gallon disposable plastic keg) with bread yeast, based upon a recipe I saw in a local newspaper.

First, let's fix your current problem. You have way too much headspace -- the wine will oxidize. You need to move it to a smaller container OR add another wine. One option is to add a neutral tasting white wine, and another is to ferment something like apple juice, and use that to fill the space. Either will change the wine, but if you don't address the headspace, you won't have wine.

Additionally, the wine needs to be under an airlock. If it's under any type of covering that can transmit air, it will oxidize.

For your next wine, use a different recipe. The one you used has serious problems.

Sugar is WAY too high. I recommend a starting SG between 1.085 and 1.100, and 1.140 is way above that. You need to calculate/measure the sugar, and filling a jar is far too likely to add too much sugar.

Table wines don't stop fermentation at 1.051, so it's likely the yeast hit its ABV tolerance. Sorbate + K-meta are unnecessary as it's very unlikely the wine will continue fermenting.

Don't ferment in a closed container. Wine yeast needs O2 for reproduction, and a closed container is counter-productive. And ... don't ferment in too small of a container, as it will "boil over" and you'll lose volume. [Unfortunately, you're fully aware of this one.]

Ferment in a food grade bucket, putting a towel over the top. Home Depot 5 gallon orange buckets are food grade, and you can ferment batch with a volume of to 4 US gallons in them.

I can go on with other tips, but this is probably enough to be a bit overwhelming already.

Go to the Country Wines forum and read the threads that sound interesting. This will give you a better understanding of the process, so your next go will be less stressful.

 

[ChuckD]

The wine looks good. It will probably be sweet and high ABV. Ditto what Brian said… reduce that head space and get an airlock. I would probably rack it off the lees at this point because your straining process may have left a lot fruit pulp (gross lees) that has now settled to the bottom of your container.

Start collecting various sized glass containers. It seems you can never have too many.

And welcome to WMT!

 

[sour_grapes]

Welcome to WMT!

 

[WannaGotobed]

Welcome to WMT!

I skimmed the blog you mentioned. Like a lot of "do it yourself" blogs, the recipe/method "works", but it's far from optimal, and a few things (such as sorbate stopping a fermentation) are wrong.

Don't feel bad about trying that one. My first wine was rhubarb, fermented in an expended beer ball (5 gallon disposable plastic keg) with bread yeast, based upon a recipe I saw in a local newspaper.

First, let's fix your current problem. You have way too much headspace -- the wine will oxidize. You need to move it to a smaller container OR add another wine. One option is to add a neutral tasting white win, and another is to ferment something like apple juice, and use that to fill the space. Either will change the wine, but if you don't address the headspace, you won't have wine.

Additionally, the wine needs to be under an airlock. If it's under any type of covering that can transmit air, it will oxidize.

For your next wine, use a different recipe. The one you used has serious problems.

Sugar is WAY too high. I recommend a starting SG between 1.085 and 1.100, and 1.140 is way above that. You need to calculate/measure the sugar, and filling a jar is far too likely to add too much sugar.

Tables wines don't stop fermentation at 1.051, so it's likely the yeast hit its ABV tolerance. Sorbate + K-meta are unnecessary as it's very unlikely the wine will continue fermenting.

Don't ferment in a closed container. Wine yeast needs O2 for reproduction, and a closed container is counter-productive. And ... don't ferment in too small of a container, as it will "boil over" and you'll lose volume. [Unfortunately, you're fully aware of this one.]

Ferment in a food grade bucket, putting a towel over the top. Home Depot 5 gallon orange buckets are food grade, and you can ferment batch with a volume of to 4 US gallons in them.

I can go on with other tips, but this is probably enough to be a bit overwhelming already.

Go to the Country Wines forum and read the threads that sound interesting. This will give you a better understanding of the process, so your next go will be less stressful.

Thank you for all your help! I tried reading and researching as much as I could due to the initial concerns, so it's not overwhelming compared to what I feel I don't know about the process.

The airlock has been on the entire time, thank you for clarifying.

I do have questions regarding blending with additional wine or juice because these fuyu persimmons came from a local farm that just closed down after running since the 1800s and is now being demolished. I didn't have many persimmons initially and thought trying to turn the remaining few into wine would've been a good way to hold on to these nice fruits. The fuyu persimmons taste very unique. They're special and I'd like to preserve their flavor since I notice it's easy for persimmons to get lost in anything they're in.

What are good neutral wines for this scenario?

If I try to blend it with a neutral wine and find that somehow they don't compliment each other well for whatever reason, what might be another options?

Do I need a siphon to rack off the lees for such a small quantity?

 

[winemaker81]

I tried reading and researching as much as I could due to the initial concerns, so it's not overwhelming compared to what I feel I don't know about the process.

Winemaking is actually easy. Yeast does all the work, you just provide raw material and a happy environment. Understanding your role in that process? Ok, that can take time.

Read this post about the basic winemaking process. This will give you background.

What are good neutral wines for this scenario?

Pinot Grigio is a good choice -- light flavored. Anything that isn't strongly flavored will work.

However -- anything you add to your wine will change it. Keep your eye on the end goal, which is protecting your investment. You have invested time, effort, materials, money, pride, etc. into your wine. You may not get what you expected, but the focus should be on achieving a good result.

If you want to preserve the specific qualities of the fruit, find smaller containers. Keep in mind that 2 bottles of wine disappears so quickly.

 

[Ohio Bob]

What are good neutral wines for this scenario?

If I try to blend it with a neutral wine and find that somehow they don't compliment each other well for whatever reason, what might be another options?

Do I need a siphon to rack off the lees for such a small quantity?

I would think a Sauvignon Blanc, Pinot Gris, or maybe a unoaked Chardonnay would be close. It all depends on if you like those wine to begin with. If you blend them in and you don’t like it, you really have no recourse. I also note you are only expecting two bottles of wine. This isn’t even a micro batch, but a nano batch. You’re not risking much by trying.

Siphoning can result in some loss of wine depending on how you do it. If you use a tube, half filled with water, and use it to prime the siphon, it may be hard to know when the wine starts and the water ends. It’s easier to do it this way with a red. If you buy an auto siphon you can probably get better results. Just make sure you don’t tip over the wine jug, the auto siphon is tall compared to the jug and can easily tip it as the wine jug empties. I know because I’ve tipped one over.

 

[Rice_Guy]

welcome to WMT some options;
* some traditional recipes will have a balloon over the fermenting bottle. Other traditional will have a tube which bubbles into a glass of water. The blog has some kind of silicone to exclude air. I have used silicone bowl covers on 120mm jars (wide mouth).
* Mom filtered things she picked with a cotton flour sack. This was twisted to squeeze more liquid out. In the scheme of things with two bottles it will be hard to get a good separation, I might let it be as learning curve.
* small batches have more problems with oxygen. It will probably taste better young. Jail house hooch is basically fermented and then drunk. It is hard to make wine with any shelf life without metabisulphite (an antioxidant). It is hard to do small batches since the ratio of air to liquid is higher.
* I like the blog note on grosch bottles. The wire operates as a spring so there is less risk for late fermentation.
* sorbate is used to prevent yeast growth. For two bottles I might just put it in the fridge. Yeast pretty well stops below 40F.
* you have an assumed start of 1.140, Bryan noted that 1.090 or 1.100 might be more typical. I would be tempted to try up to 25% dilution with water and lemon juice.
* acid in wine acts as a preservative, good to add lemon. The ideal is about pH 3.5, as first time pH paper gives an approximation. Mom would taste and think how does this compare with grandpa.

Good luck, the yeast do our work, all we do is establish healthy conditions for them.

 

[WannaGotobed]

I would think a Sauvignon Blanc, Pinot Gris, or maybe a unoaked Chardonnay would be close.

Note, I'm still trying to understand my options when asking about topping off the wine:

If I want to try reaching my goal of 2 bottles by blending what I have with another alcohol, at what stage(s) could I opt to take that route? For instance here are two scenarios I am curious about:
1. If I find a container that would fit my current volume and airlock it leaving 1" headspace (I think that's ~1000mL -- ~1 quart), would the option to blend with another wine exist at the bottling stage?
2. Blending it with another alcohol right now at its current stage sounds like is acceptable to top off the wine in its current container. I am certain I understand that this is the option that's currently presented to me, so I guess I'm curious to know if the first one listed is also a scenario.

Read this post about the basic winemaking process. This will give you background.

I read it all just now. I wanted to inquire about section D. Pressing or Racking because I think that's where I am at right now. You think the advice someone gave me to squeeze the pulp at my SG @ 1.051 was an attempt at moving along to the Pressing stage and does that mean that there exists a winemaking method where some people decide that once their specific gravity reaches a desired range, they'll press the pulp through any of the methods indicated, and then move the mixture to a secondary vessel with an airlock and leave it alone until SG <= 0.998?

you have an assumed start of 1.140, Bryan noted that 1.090 or 1.100 might be more typical. I would be tempted to try up to 25% dilution with water and lemon juice.

Is that still an option at my current stage? It's been 2 weeks since I moved it to this secondary vessel.

I also have the pureed flesh of 1 persimmon in the fridge and possibly 2-3 more presimmons lying around (if they don't get eaten or used up), let me know if there's also something pertinent I could consider as an option if I have some pulp?

 

[Ohio Bob]

It looks like you have gross lees in your containers, that is fruit pulp, not dead yeast. Do not top those containers off, but rack the clear wine off to a third sanitized container. Rack or pour both of those into the single container. If you have any headspace more than say 1/2”, top it off with another wine. If you have a little wine leftover, grab a glass and make some tasting notes. A single container will make decisions easier, rather than having to fix each container independently. If you don’t have any containers big enough to hold all your wine, use a sanitized bucket, then refill your cleaned/sanitized containers. If your last container needs topping off, do so with a wine, mark this container so you can taste it in 3 months and evaluate at that time.

Add 1/4 tsp of potassium metabisulfite per 5 gallons of wine, obviously scale down this ratio to the volume of wine you end up with. Then put on an airlock. In 3 months repeat these steps.

Back to the pressing question, pressing large chunks of fruit might yield more liquid, depends on the fruit, was it frozen, etc. if you food processed frozen fruit to get mush, then pressing mush is only going to get you mush. You won’t be separating fruit from liquid. If you have mush, then it’s best to let gravity and time let those mush particles drop to the bottom, racking the clear liquid off.

By the way, you do have very clear liquid, so that is encouraging and it’s not hazy, indicating we have to use fining agents to get it to clear.

 

[winemaker81]

I read it all just now. I wanted to inquire about section D. Pressing or Racking because I think that's where I am at right now. You think the advice someone gave me to squeeze the pulp at my SG @ 1.051 was an attempt at moving along to the Pressing stage and does that mean that there exists a winemaking method where some people decide that once their specific gravity reaches a desired range, they'll press the pulp through any of the methods indicated, and then move the mixture to a secondary vessel with an airlock and leave it alone until SG <= 0.998?

I have no insight into why you were given that advice.

It is reasonable advice to press at 1.050, given your situation. One tactic to get a stuck fermentation to re-ignite is to rack/press. The activity and introduction of O2 sometimes invigorates things.

If it were me, I'd follow Bob's advice to remove the sediment, then I'd put the wine back into a single open container, as that enables daily stirring, which is helpful. At 1.020 or below, putting the wine under airlock makes sense.

Another option is to make an overnight starter with EC-1118. If the original yeast has hit its ABV tolerance, the EC-1118 will take over.