Ph adjustment needed???

[maverick007]

I am pre-ferment with a batch of blackberry and welch's grape concentrate.

The S.G. is 1.084 (right on target)
Ph is 3.95
TA is 1.15 (taken with a Ph meter using 0.2N ).

The taste is great. Should I be concerned about the Ph?
Should I add Tartaric acid to bring down the Ph to 3.5? How much? 3.25 tsp?

I considered adding toasted bavarian oak, bananas and raisins in the primary.

I would appreciate any advice.

TIA

 

[Johnd]

Make sure your formula calcs and measurements were correct, that high of a TA is very unlikely with such a high pH.

 

[Rice_Guy]

Ph is 3.95
TA is 1.15 (taken with a Ph meter using 0.2N ).
The taste is great. Should I be concerned about the Ph?

your question is how much shelf life do I want?
* Yes you can make wine at pH 3.95
* The effectiveness of SO2 is greater the lower you push the pH. With a fruit wine (and white grape) the SO2 is the dominant predictor of shelf life. Since I started bottling for storage instead of having a party I push fruits to a pH of 3.2 to 3.5 so flavors match white grape.
* you can push pH lower but expect that flavors will balance with more added sweetness: ex. I have tested cola "P" at 2.28/ Sp.G. 1.046, diet cola "C" at 2.86 soda "MD" at 2.82/ Sp.G. 1.054, cranberry wine at pH 3.01/ Sp.G. 1.030

 

[Scooter68]

While taste matters... at the point your are at now, you need to get that pH down - somewhere below 3.6 to be safe. The concord grape juice is the likely culprit.

Also be prepared for the Blackberry taste to be overwhelmed by the concord grape taste if you grape juice content is anywhere over 25%.

Finally - go slow with the adjustment. Give it at least 4-8 hours to impact the numbers. So whatever amount you decide to add - do no more than half of that and wait before re-testing.

 

[maverick007]

Thanks Johnd for responding. Perhaps I have the decimal point in the wrong place.
I calibrated my Milwaukee MW102 Ph meter prior to taking measurement.
I used the following formula.
(75x11.5ml NaoH x 0.2)/15ml= 11.5g/l
Do I move the decimal point 1 place to the left to get the percentage?

 

[maverick007]

Thanks Scooter68 for responding.
I added 12 tsp. of tartaric acid 5 hours ago.
New readings:
Ph is 3.79 down from 3.95 (a reduction of 0.16/12=0.0133/tsp.
At that rate I est. needing 26 tsp. to achieve a Ph of 3.6
The TA increased to 13.75 from 11.5 g/ml.

At this point should I ignore the TA? Drive down the Ph to 3.6 then pitch my yeast? (71B-1122)

 

[maverick007]

Rice_Guy thanks for responding.

Yes,shelf life is a consideration. This is a 7 gal. batch. But, a bigger concern is that this is drinkable.
I plan to ferment to dry, then backsweeten with a blackberry syrup to boost blackberry flavor and aroma.

 

[Scooter68]

Go slow, Change can happen fast when you least expect it. I've had that "Fun" of over adjusting and having to correct back - and I hate thinking about tossing in more and more chemicals, even if they are basically harmless.

 

[sour_grapes]

Ph is 3.79 down from 3.95 (a reduction of 0.16/12=0.0133/tsp.
At that rate I est. needing 26 tsp. to achieve a Ph of 3.6

Note that pH is not a linear scale. (It is logarithmic.) It makes no sense to extrapolate the way you did. More importantly, wine is complex with unknown/unknowable buffering.

 

[Scooter68]

Exactly as Sour Grapes said - what seems like the right amount can tip that balance rapidly. If you've made it to 3.95, go slow from that point.

 

[maverick007]

I have been making small incremental additions of tartaric acid. I have added 30 tsp. and reached a Ph of 3.60.
I am going to pitch the yeast. I will keep the thread updated.

Thanks for the great advice. This has been a valuable learning experience.

 

[Johnd]

So what’s your TA now? TA gives an indication as to taste in the final wine. Once the sugar is gone, too much acid will taste sour / tart on the palate, though some backsweetening in a fruit wine can compensate for that.

 

[Stressbaby]

Those numbers still look "off" to me.
I've made a lot of fruit wines, never seen a TA of 11 and pH 3.95.
Just to confirm, that means 11.5ml of 0.2N to bring 15ml of wine up to pH 8.2.
Are you sure your 0.2N solution is not old?

 

[Rice_Guy]

Thanks Johnd for responding. Perhaps I have the decimal point in the wrong place.
I calibrated my Milwaukee MW102 Ph meter prior to taking measurement.
I used the following formula.
(75x11.5ml NaoH x 0.2)/15ml= 11.5g/l
Do I move the decimal point 1 place to the left to get the percentage?

You have 2 different units
11.5g/ liter is assumed to be 11.5g/ 1000grams and if you move the decimal one place have 1.15g/ 100 gm which is percentage. (Pure water is 1gm per ml, , but sugar syrup and alcohol are not)

 

[Rice_Guy]

Make sure your formula calcs and measurements were correct, that high of a TA is very unlikely with such a high pH.

Literature value: blackberry - 1.2% acid (as citric acid) 7% sugar
A retail blackberry which was frozen then juiced: pH 3.41 SpGrav 1.038

 

[maverick007]

I am using NaOH 0.2 from my Vintners best acid testing kit purchased 3 weeks ago from Amazon.

Today's Test

sample taken from center of 7 gal. primary.
Ph=3.64
TA=16.5 (16.5ml to reach 8.22 on Ph meter) (milwaukee mw102)
Test was run 2x...same result each time.
using distilled water to clean probe.
must temp=76 degrees

 

[maverick007]

This might become my SourPatch Dragon Blood lol.

 

[Stressbaby]

Those are really strange numbers.
I wonder if your 0.2N is mislabeled and is really 0.1N.
Can you post the specifics on your recipe?

 

[maverick007]

Black & Blue Recipe
96 oz. VH Blackberry Base
32 oz Cran-Blackberry Ocean Spray juice
20- 11.5 oz Welch's Grape Conc
48 oz. Lemon Juice
water to 7 gallons
Note: I wanted to make a batch with no added sugar.
SG-1.084
Ph-3.95
TA-11.5
Temp-72F
Tannin-1t
YE-2t
YN-3t
PE-3t
Waited 12 hours, hydrated yeast and pitched 71B.
24hrs later no activity. Added 3t of YN and broadcast 2nd pack of yeast.
This morning no activity. Going to make a starter with juice and in 4 hrs pitch.
Side Note:
Yesterday I started a batch of Tropical Daze as per Pumpkinman recipe.
Using same equip. and reagent solution. SG-1.090 Ph-4.27 TA-4.5.
Added 5.5t of tartaric acid. new Ph-3.86 TA-5.5. These results look normal??

TIA for any and all suggestions!!

 

[Stressbaby]

It's very different from anything I've made so I don't know about the acid situation. I suspect it will smell/taste like Concord and not much else.

The other batch looks better from the acid/pH perspective. IMO you still need to get the pH down some more.