ph testing and adjustment

[jamesngalveston]

Turock,
Interesting about pectic enzyme added when fruit is thawing.
How much pectic per pound of frozen fruit.
Makes so much sense...Break down the fruit before sugar, I would imagine gives different reading on a hydrometer.
THanks for reply

 

[ibglowin]

If your using carboys and your wine making area has never seen any MLB then the chance of a "spontaneous MLF" is 0.00%

If your using barrels and aging wines in them that have gone through MLF in those barrels then yes, you can get a MLF without the use of MLB.

If you don't want MLF then just keep your SO2 levels up and it will not happen.

You do not need expensive equipment really to determine MLF activity or completion. A $50 Chromatography kit from More Wine etc. is state of the art and will do hundreds of test.

If my understanding is correct, MLF happens naturally whether you want it to or not. But, it can be initiated. If you do not want MLF how do you stop it.

 

[Turock]

James---Did you ever notice that PH rises slighty once fermentation starts? That's because all the fruit is breaking down, giving a better representation of the real PH of the fruit. It's a simple principle, but not one you might think of until it gets on your radar screen. It's great when things start clicking for you---it's great to know WHY you're doing WHAT you're doing. And yes, the SG might change slighty once the fruit is broken down. But the real difference is in the PH.

The dose for pectic enzyme is 1/2 tsp per gallon. But don't be afraid to use a little more on solid fruits like apples or pears. Pectic enzyme is about the only addition to wine that if you use too much, there is no problem.

 

[Turock]

Geek---Well, we have our winery in my winemaking buddy's basement too. So when we do an MLF, we keep it sequestered in a spare bedroom upstairs. We do all our MLF's in winter so that we are not using the same tools used for the MLF down in the winery while making other wines until they are all cleaned and run thru a meta bath before going back downstairs. Plus, in winter we have better control over the temp of the room to satisfy the temp requirement of the MLB. It's not a happy idea to have a space heater running, if needed, on the MLF while the AC is on in summer!! Seems to work quite well----but we are real careful and conscious about how an MLB can spread around. We take great care not to have it escape on us.

 

[GeoS]

Great information. Thanks for everyone's guidance.

 

[GeoS]

What ate the repercussions of not doing MLF on a red.

 

[geek]

What ate the repercussions of not doing MLF on a red.

not getting a better tasty and mouthful flavor in your wines...

 

[Turock]

GeoS--Depends on the red you're talking about. Many reds are good done in fruit style--meaning no MLF. But there are some that aren't very good without an MLF, and one of those is Pinot Noir. It's downright harsh-tasting---just has a profile I don't like. But do an MLF on it,age in the carboy a year, then 2-3 years in the bottle and you've got something special. Our 3 year old Pinot Noir has some great chocolate notes on it! That would have never come out if it hadn't been MLF'd.

 

[GeoS]

GeoS--Depends on the red you're talking about. Many reds are good done in fruit style--meaning no MLF. But there are some that aren't very good without an MLF, and one of those is Pinot Noir. It's downright harsh-tasting---just has a profile I don't like. But do an MLF on it,age in the carboy a year, then 2-3 years in the bottle and you've got something special. Our 3 year old Pinot Noir has some great chocolate notes on it! That would have never come out if it hadn't been MLF'd.

What about a sangiovese. I'm suspecting this may be why I cannot get the deep flavor I like. Or it could be that it's only 3 months old and still aging in the carboy.

 

[Midwest Vintner]

We used to adjust pH pre-ferment, but now we do it after. We feel we can get much closer to our target after, but we do fruit wines only.

As far as blackberry being acidic. It is, so I wouldn't go too high on fruit because of this (if you have good flavorful berries). I'd recommend 4-8 lbs max. At 8 lbs though, the berries have to be low on acid or you will need calcium carbonate.

The TTB only allows certain acids to be used in certain fruits. Acid blend is not acceptable in most, if not all non-grape wines for wineries. Just an FYI.

Acid is just one way that all winemakers are different (especially in grapes).

Turock>I won't ever knock a style, so if adj acid pre-ferm works better for your wines. Do it. I know I'd be interested in trying a few bottles.

 

[Turock]

GeoS--I've never worked with that grape and I don't know what the profile is. A simple online search would give you some suggestions for working with that grape.

MV--We like our wines to have big flavors, so almost everything is made with the consideration of 10# of fruit per gallon. Our blackberry wine is like eating blackberry pie. I don't like delicate fruit wines.

It is "error correction" to adjust acids post ferment. Pre-ferment adjustments makes all the difference in the world and some fruit wines that aren't adjusted pre-ferment, can never be brought into range in the post ferment. All you end up with is problems. Very wise to adjust pre-ferment and give up the idea of trying to balance in the post ferment where it may not work as well. Designing your wine always happens at the primary.

I really don't care what commercial winemakers can or cannot do. As a home winemaker, I can do what I want---even put acid blend in Niagara wine pre ferment!!!!

 

[Midwest Vintner]

It is NOT error correction to adjust afterwords, but it seems you are using so much fruit, that you are typically using calcium carbonate (which is what we do if the pH is too low). The wine we are making is in range of protection and if we are adding acid, it is to hit the right acidity.

I guess after years of making wines with the fruits we are, we know how much fruit will give us the body we want, with enough acidity and we are just "tweaking" the wine in the end. We always check pH in the primary and then again after couple of rackings. Keeping good records is always a good idea.

 

[Turock]

Oh well, if you're tweaking it then that is another thing. Some winemakers DO add acid in the post ferment and this is a far cry from people who are trying to RAISE PH in the post ferment--that is most certainly error correction because they paid no attention to the PH pre-ferment. Not a problem to add a touch of acid in the post ferment.

I totally agree with you--good records are critical.