GreatNorthernLlama
Member
Keep calm and have faith. Sounds good.
Seeing as my SG bottomed out I was going to just give it a day or two before my first rack
Plum Wine Recipe (for critique)
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Seeing as my SG bottomed out I was going to just give it a day or two before my first rack
It looks fine. No problemo. So you can relax for at least 24 hours with your baby on your chest or not. Add nutrients at the start of a ferment. If you added them later that is ok also. Relax. It sounds to me like your wine should turn out fine as long as the SG drops below 1.000 when you press your fruit bags. When you remove your fruit bags from your pail, knead them as hard as you can so you can dry them out. There are advantages and disadvantages to what you chose to do:
Advantages: minimum sludge - your wine will clear faster than normal if you used enough pectic enzyme at the start. If you underdosed pectic enzyme just give your wine more time to clear.
Disadvantages - slows down the ferment. You may may have unfermented sugar in the fruit in your bags which isn't a problem since your wine will keep fermenting once you press as much must as you can out of your fruit bags into gallon jugs.
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The color will be muddy until it clears. That is normal. I usually let it set in secondary for a few months. Usually after about one month it is pretty clear, and the color returns. Generally, leaving the skins in longer will produce more color, not less.
If you are detecting any H2S, you need to deal with it ASAP. The usual method is to add a double dose of Kmeta and rack it back and forth a few times, then put it in a carboy under an airlock. If your SG is at 0.996 it is ready to rack, so I would try to do that over the next few days.
After you rack it , it is important to have minimal headspace. You need to fill it up to within 1-2 inches of the stopper, so that the wine comes up into the narrow neck of the carboy. The idea is to minimize the surface area exposed to O2. Most of us start with larger batches, so that we have enough to fill the carboy after racking off primary. If you don't have a similar wine to use to top off, I suggest that you get some smaller bottles to use. 1/2 gallon glass jugs are very useful if you can find them (sometimes they are sold with apple juice in them)., or the right size stopper will fit a wine bottle, so you could add an airlock to that.
If you are detecting any H2S, you need to deal with it ASAP. The usual method is to add a double dose of Kmeta and rack it back and forth a few times, then put it in a carboy under an airlock. If your SG is at 0.996 it is ready to rack, so I would try to do that over the next few days.
After you rack it , it is important to have minimal headspace. You need to fill it up to within 1-2 inches of the stopper, so that the wine comes up into the narrow neck of the carboy. The idea is to minimize the surface area exposed to O2. Most of us start with larger batches, so that we have enough to fill the carboy after racking off primary. If you don't have a similar wine to use to top off, I suggest that you get some smaller bottles to use. 1/2 gallon glass jugs are very useful if you can find them (sometimes they are sold with apple juice in them)., or the right size stopper will fit a wine bottle, so you could add an airlock to that.
H2S must be treated quickly. Rack into a bucket, add K-meta, and stir for a couple of of minutes. If you smell a nasty reek, you got it. If caught early enough, this will handle it.
Normally at this point, extra head space is not a problem as the wine is heavily outgassing. However, the stirring to expel H2S also expels CO2, so you want only 1" to 2" headspace.
Folks expect wine to immediately look and taste like wine. It doesn't, that takes time.
Patience, Grasshopper.
A very good thread.
On a lab test basis, feeding Fermaid O has a fraction of the YAN that one gets when feeding chemical nutrient. ,, It is more efficient than DAP/ has intact amino compounds. If I make an error on dosage I would sooner run high with Fermaid or Fermfed early, as overnight when I see foam start.
Reading the referenced article, the graph has a fairly fast total cell count. This does not tell if the yeast is live or dead. The number of viable yeast / cells one could culture, is expected to be decreasing from the point of 1/3 sugar. (Roughly 1.050) ,,, ie there is more risk of damage added more YAN and oxygen after 1/3 sugar reduction.
Gas has a solubility related to the fraction of the headspace which is CO2. ie if it is actively flooding the pail with a solid cover more can dissolve, if you open the cover you just emptied the CO2 and less can dissolve. BUT practically speaking there is back pressure / water column so it will take time / ex a day to reach the new equilibrium.
If you really don’t like the muddy color, this is oxidation. Running high free SO2 could prevent it. Removing solids as settling in a fridge like white grape would reduce the color density. Tannin as chestnut or tea is an organic tool for oxidation.
There I more than one way to make good wine. ,,, Concentrate on taste.
On a lab test basis, feeding Fermaid O has a fraction of the YAN that one gets when feeding chemical nutrient. ,, It is more efficient than DAP/ has intact amino compounds. If I make an error on dosage I would sooner run high with Fermaid or Fermfed early, as overnight when I see foam start.
Reading the referenced article, the graph has a fairly fast total cell count. This does not tell if the yeast is live or dead. The number of viable yeast / cells one could culture, is expected to be decreasing from the point of 1/3 sugar. (Roughly 1.050) ,,, ie there is more risk of damage added more YAN and oxygen after 1/3 sugar reduction.
Gas has a solubility related to the fraction of the headspace which is CO2. ie if it is actively flooding the pail with a solid cover more can dissolve, if you open the cover you just emptied the CO2 and less can dissolve. BUT practically speaking there is back pressure / water column so it will take time / ex a day to reach the new equilibrium.
If you really don’t like the muddy color, this is oxidation. Running high free SO2 could prevent it. Removing solids as settling in a fridge like white grape would reduce the color density. Tannin as chestnut or tea is an organic tool for oxidation.
There I more than one way to make good wine. ,,, Concentrate on taste.
Probably all the above
. To address terminology...COLD CRASH is a term used for making beer and not wine. Although, the process of cooling down the ferment/must/wort us used and physics is used, >cold stabilization< is more appropriate . The cold stabilization process is directed at multiple changes in wine. Protein stabilizing and acidity are addressed for wine making and not for beer. (an entirely different conversation)There are multiple ways to achieve clearing of wine. Generally, the two that need to be considered, particulates and proteins. Particulates are "relatively" easy: a) Time is your friend. b) Two part fining works well, but understand it works on the positive and negative charges of ions of the particulates. I use Kieselsol & Chitosan, but there other combinations that work well also. c) Cold stabilizing helps. That works on the physics principle of difference of densities making particles seem heavier in relation to the liquid. d) Filtering can be used, but only for polishing a clear wine.
Proteins are a different and a bear to correct. They affect clarity by the long chain molecules diffusing the light passing through the wine. Breaking the long chain molecules into shorter ones is where pectic enzyme (PE) comes in. PE works best at warmer temperatures, roughly around 80-85*F but is less effective at cooler temperatures (it works, just takes longer). PE is also less effective in finished wine when alcohol is present. So hitting it "with a ton of PE" can help, but using it post fermentation is in for the long haul (months). Bentonite can be used for proteins, but it's a two edge sword. Too much will strip flavor and color, too little starts to address the issue but gives the impression "it doesn't work". Another sharp edge of Bentonite is it affects PE, so using both together essentially cancel each other- and back to the "it doesn't work" impression. Bentonite can be used for particulate clearing as part of the other products mentioned earlier.
The prevention part can be decided pre-ferment. But it depends on what you want to address. Both PE and Bentonite can be used on the front end of fermentation, but not both at the same time.
Color between pre ferment and post ferment is another area for discussion. Keeping color gets even more technical.
What can be done is keep tabs on pectin while using methods to reduce it. (If not reduced, it will wind up in the bottle as brown flakes after a time
. Ask me how I know) Doing that is using a simple test of mixing a 3;1 ratio of methylated spirits to wine/must. If pectin is present, a snotty white goo will form. I have attached photos of a comparison for reference. The photo on the left is plum wine before fermenting. The photo on the right is the same wine. PE was added pre ferment, racked, K&C added, cleared for about a month, and a dose of bentonite added and let settle for another month. The photo was taken after all of those treatments. Through all of that, I've learned to adjust my methods for more effective use of the products. Yes, plums have LOTS of pectin.So, as with all wine, learning curves get pretty steep. The really hard part is separating rumors from best practices. Finding supporting >documented< papers to support best practices requires lots of reading. The Scott Labs website is a start. Multiple books are available as well from well known authors.
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GreatNorthernLlama
Member
Thanks to everyone for the feedback! Yeah this is a spectacular thread (hopefully helpful to someone later). Hopefully the yields I saw from the plum tree this year continue and I'll have many years to perfect such a recipe over time.
Thanks for the terminology fix. I'm enjoying mead making at the same time (got an apple ciser that *knock wood* seems to be working so well I'll post recipe in another thread once I rack then keg).
As for fining this batch I'm just glad everyone isn't saying it's ruined lol. I just want a wine to taste hf decent. Color, clarity and presentation can get fixed over the years through practice. For now I think my plan is to add PE (thinking about 2 tbsp for a 6.5 gallon batch; I did the same 2 tbsp pre ferment) when I rack, let it sit for a week, and maybe "cold stabilize" for a few days in the Canadian garage I have at my disposal right now lol. Beyond that, patience will be the name of the game.
Thanks for the terminology fix. I'm enjoying mead making at the same time (got an apple ciser that *knock wood* seems to be working so well I'll post recipe in another thread once I rack then keg).
As for fining this batch I'm just glad everyone isn't saying it's ruined lol. I just want a wine to taste hf decent. Color, clarity and presentation can get fixed over the years through practice. For now I think my plan is to add PE (thinking about 2 tbsp for a 6.5 gallon batch; I did the same 2 tbsp pre ferment) when I rack, let it sit for a week, and maybe "cold stabilize" for a few days in the Canadian garage I have at my disposal right now lol. Beyond that, patience will be the name of the game.
GreatNorthernLlama
Member
How much k meta? I'm using campden tabs since that's what's available in my area. I had assumed the standard directions of 1 tab per gallon. If incorrect let me know
a Campden is .5 gram
Twenty year back I routinely measured 0.2 gm per gallon but discovered 0.3 gm did better resisting oxidation. You could use one tablet per gallon. Flavor for most folks starts at 100 ppm.,,, .1 gm per liter,,, and SO2 goes away with time
Twenty year back I routinely measured 0.2 gm per gallon but discovered 0.3 gm did better resisting oxidation. You could use one tablet per gallon. Flavor for most folks starts at 100 ppm.,,, .1 gm per liter,,, and SO2 goes away with time
GreatNorthernLlama
Member
Almost caught myself there with liters in the last line. Confused myself for a bit lol.
I of course already dosed the must pre fermentation with one tab per gallon. Does that impact your recommendation? Like if I already have .5g per gallon as you say, should I err on the low end and stick with .2 or .3, or go full at it cuz the k meta dissipates and I wanna knock out the h2s as hard as I can?
All options available. I crush tabs with a dedicated morter and pestle and weigh out with a scale
If caught early, 1 Campden per gallon should be enough. If the wine really reeks, e.g., H2S is more advanced, then I'd use 2 per gallon.
If you don't know, part of what is in the tablets is a binder. The tablets are NOT 100% Kmeta. Weighing with a scale is a good idea though.
All my tropical fruit wines look like this heaven-sent sediment but it will settle out. I usually do the first rack after a week of removing the fruit let it sit a few weeks and if not dropping sit it on an ice block for a bit and that does the trick.
Regarding the colour from the skins, in all the batches of plum wine I have made the raw initial colour never stays. I have made some interesting colour change by adding various amounts of dragon fruit juice (sieved from raw fruits and sterilized) as it does not take a lot to add back some reddish tones
GreatNorthernLlama
Member
It's been quite a while. Personal health issues in the family really threw a wrench into the past few weeks which have been keeping me from the forums and general reading of information.
This has been a rough batch for performance, but amazing as a learning process. That being said, Fate decided to teach me one last important lesson which @Hazelemere has already been hammering home. TAKE YOUR DAMNED TIME!!! (and lateral to that, work with a clean workspace).
After knocking over my 1 gallon carboy, destroying my big 6 gallon, I lost about 4 gallons of my plum wine to the basement floor. I used a brew bag to strain what I could from the remaining plum wine, and saved in three different 3 litre wine bottles (and rushed to pick up new plastic lined caps I read which are supposed to produce a proper air seal for these bottles).
I'm taking it all in stride now. Plans to totally clean up the whole basement, finally set up the home gym (thank you new years resolutions) and move a large stainless steel bench from my garage to be used as a proper brew station setup. I count that I've still got 23lbs of plums for another few smaller batches in the new year.
Final comments on this dramatic batch of wine, I'm seeing the nice color start to come back already as everyone has mentioned. This gives me hope that with time and a lot more patience, I shall eventually be putting out some really nice stuff in a few years to come. Until then, it's about the journey, not the destination.
Thank you all for your help with this batch! There are a few topics that are still confusing me a bit like backsweetening and particularly stabilizing. Before initiating discussions I'm going to do a little more of my own research both in and outside of the forums before perhaps starting a discussion.
Cheers, and happy holidays to all.
Evan
This has been a rough batch for performance, but amazing as a learning process. That being said, Fate decided to teach me one last important lesson which @Hazelemere has already been hammering home. TAKE YOUR DAMNED TIME!!! (and lateral to that, work with a clean workspace).
After knocking over my 1 gallon carboy, destroying my big 6 gallon, I lost about 4 gallons of my plum wine to the basement floor. I used a brew bag to strain what I could from the remaining plum wine, and saved in three different 3 litre wine bottles (and rushed to pick up new plastic lined caps I read which are supposed to produce a proper air seal for these bottles).
I'm taking it all in stride now. Plans to totally clean up the whole basement, finally set up the home gym (thank you new years resolutions) and move a large stainless steel bench from my garage to be used as a proper brew station setup. I count that I've still got 23lbs of plums for another few smaller batches in the new year.
Final comments on this dramatic batch of wine, I'm seeing the nice color start to come back already as everyone has mentioned. This gives me hope that with time and a lot more patience, I shall eventually be putting out some really nice stuff in a few years to come. Until then, it's about the journey, not the destination.
Thank you all for your help with this batch! There are a few topics that are still confusing me a bit like backsweetening and particularly stabilizing. Before initiating discussions I'm going to do a little more of my own research both in and outside of the forums before perhaps starting a discussion.
Cheers, and happy holidays to all.
Evan
Sorry to hear about your wine making troubles. I can sympathize. I have been working out of a cramped basement bathroom and washing carboys in a bathtub for four years.
I dropped and smashed a 25 bottle carboy of really tasty California Pinot Noir on my driveway years ago. Merde happens.
