possible alternative to topping off?

[jamesngalveston]

redhead vs readhead, thats good seth...

 

[Tess]

http://education.jlab.org/qa/matter_01.html

Technically, matter is not everywhere, but that is besides the point for the issue at hand.

The more important issue is that inert-gas/CO2 is in fact used in winemaking to create a blanket above the wine. You only want to replace the gas space with your gas of choice leaving little to no room for oxygen. That way as the wine releases its own CO2 the airlock it will either release CO2 or inert gas from the gas space while simultaneously replenishing the gas space with CO2 from the wine.

One needs to take care as to not force excess CO2/inert-gas into suspension by over-pressurization of the gas space. Inert gas requires a higher pressure than CO2 to get forced into suspension with the wine, so naturally Argon is a more attractive gas than CO2.

Yes it is. Air is matter, water is matter. Its everywhere. Yes it is the whole point. You cant dispalce mater with out replacing it with mater, not on this earth. look we can argue this all night. Im done. I will end it with "Its my theory and Im sticking to it" Im done with this tread

 

[SpoiledRotten]

I just read this and now, I think I'll go have a glass of wine.

 

[RCGoodin]

Yes it is. Air is matter, water is matter. Its everywhere. Yes it is the whole point. You cant dispalce mater with out replacing it with mater, not on this earth. look we can argue this all night. Im done. I will end it with "Its my theory and Im sticking to it" Im done with this tread

Don't get angry, we're all friends here.......................more or less, or more matter or less matter. Maybe it doesn't matter at all.

I'm rolling another one and drinking more.

 

[seth8530]

e=MC^2 Matter can be converted between mass and energy fluidly. It happens all the time when gamma rays get turned into electrons or when positrons and electrons annihilate each other.

But, that is still irrelevant. Matter can be destroyed, converted and moved with nothing to replace it. Consider a coke, you let the gas out, gas did not just rush back in and replace the gas inside of the coke did it? Thus, the coke lost matter and mass but the outside air gained matter and mass nothing came in to replace it. If you want more details try looking up things such as control volumes.

BTW, this comes in the friendliest manner possible from my background in nuclear physics and the thermal sciences. I am not infallible btw, but I figured I would share what I know from what I have learned in the past few years.

 

[robie]

e=MC^2 Matter can be converted between mass and energy fluidly. It happens all the time when gamma rays get turned into electrons or when positrons and electrons annihilate each other.

But, that is still irrelevant. Matter can be destroyed, converted and moved with nothing to replace it. Consider a coke, you let the gas out, gas did not just rush back in and replace the gas inside of the coke did it? Thus, the coke lost matter and mass but the outside air gained matter and mass nothing came in to replace it. If you want more details try looking up things such as control volumes.

All true, but probably a little too technical to be relevant to what we are doing here. Let's move on, please...

 

[beardy]

All true, but probably a little too technical to be relevant to what we are doing here. Let's move on, please...

Hallelujah

 

[Loner]

And amen !!

 

[TheRooster]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffusion

I do not think it in itself is a bad idea. Many commercial wineries use inert gas to create a safety cloud over wine to help mitigate oxidation issues. This below article describes its use..

http://morewinemaking.com/public/pdf/inertgas.pdf

I believe one thing you want to watch out for is managing to get CO2 into suspension with the wine. Ie, a protective blanket and not actually forcing it into suspension with the wine by over pressurizing/ concentrating the CO2.... But read the article for more details.... One thing that might be possible is using a keg to protect the wine with CO2 over the long term and then force degassing it when aging is complete.. However, I might be concerned about forming carboxylic acid from the CO2.

Just read the inert gas article. Thanks, Seth!

 

[seth8530]

Yep, NP glad I could help.

 

[vacuumpumpman]

I came up with this idea several years ago - but it never seem to take off ??

http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/f3/carboy-air-space-bladder-trial-version-18124/

 

[dessertmaker]

Wow! I sense a lot of tension here. Everybody take 5 and drink some hooch!

Enough theorizing! Somebody with a decent beer and decent setup should try this in a 5 gallon carboy with an airlock and see if they have any noticeable carbonation occur.

 

[jamesngalveston]

after reading steves thread i made a test... I filled a 3 gallon carboy with 2 gallons water, added a ball0on taped to a racking hose..slipped into carboy.
filled with water ....the more water i filled the more the water rose in the carboy. carboy was topped off.
i cut the hose to fit right below the bung, so i could grap it with my fingers.
not sure why...anyhow i syphoned off the water like it was wine, left the ballon in...when carboy was empty..i pulled on the tube, balloon fell off.
and i cleaned the carboy...

 

[vacuumpumpman]

Yes James
It is similar to your balloon theory. The inflatable bags are self sealing and reusable. I found that most winemakers would rather top off their carboys - rather than to use a different procedure.

 

[WVMountaineerJack]

I think a lot of people get caught up in keeping it all the same and if they dont have exactly the same wine to top off with panic and do silly things to top off with instead of just adding another bottle of finished wine. I like to make a batch of strong elderberry wine, overoak it and put it in screwcap bottles to use as toppers for any red wine. Why not take the oppurtunity to improve on your wine a little by adding something that makes it better, wont contaminate it, wont clog your vent and blow it all out, just do it slowly so that Behrs laws are taken into account and you dont get a volcano right?

WVMJ

 

[jamesngalveston]

now that i have like 134 bottles of wine, i have not problem in pulling one are two out to top off with...When my racks were empty i just bought cheap wine.
I pretty much make the same thing, different variants of db..so i have plenty of topping off material.

 

[JohnT]

Vacumepumpman,

I remember you filling me in on this Idea. I thought it the only true viable alternative to topping off. You really need to market this idea..

OK,

Folks, I kept quite on this topic. No doubt that some of you may have though that I was sick or something as I have been very vocal about this issue. I will just breifly state my case for the sake of those that might no know me...

It its this: Home winemakers should NEVER use "gas purging" as a replacement for topping off.

1) As others may have said, Air will not ever be completly purged when adding either CO2 or a nobel gas. You need to consider density. Too often people think that the gas provids a protective blanket, but is simply does not. The nobel gas will mix with air and only serve to reduce the amount of air contact.

2) Some professional wineries may use gas, but if you notice, the tanks the wine is storred in has a perfect hermetic seal. This means that the tanks they use do not "breath" due to thermal and atmospheric expansion and contraction. In the case of a carboy that has a fermentation trap, like most home winemakers, this breathing will simply expell the gas in favor of outside air.

3) Considering the above two points, gas gives a winemaker a false sense of security. I know many that have used gas only to be shocked that their batch of wine has oxidized.

4) Finally, lets face it, gas is expensive. When you think of the price of a tank, regulators, etc, It would have been far wiser to simply top the wine up with wine or switch to a smaller sized carboy.

OK, I am off the soap box now.

 

[seth8530]

Vacumepumpman,

I remember you filling me in on this Idea. I thought it the only true viable alternative to topping off. You really need to market this idea..

OK,

Folks, I kept quite on this topic. No doubt that some of you may have though that I was sick or something as I have been very vocal about this issue. I will just breifly state my case for the sake of those that might no know me...

It its this: Home winemakers should NEVER use "gas purging" as a replacement for topping off.

1) As others may have said, Air will not ever be completly purged when adding either CO2 or a nobel gas. You need to consider density. Too often people think that the gas provids a protective blanket, but is simply does not. The nobel gas will mix with air and only serve to reduce the amount of air contact.

2) Some professional wineries may use gas, but if you notice, the tanks the wine is storred in has a perfect hermetic seal. This means that the tanks they use do not "breath" due to thermal and atmospheric expansion and contraction. In the case of a carboy that has a fermentation trap, like most home winemakers, this breathing will simply expell the gas in favor of outside air.

3) Considering the above two points, gas gives a winemaker a false sense of security. I know many that have used gas only to be shocked that their batch of wine has oxidized.

4) Finally, lets face it, gas is expensive. When you think of the price of a tank, regulators, etc, It would have been far wiser to simply top the wine up with wine or switch to a smaller sized carboy.

OK, I am off the soap box now.

When you say NEVER what kind of setup are you referring to? I can see it not working on a carboy, but I do not see any reason why it would not work on a keg.

 

[JohnT]

Any gas you add will not purge out all of the air. It is not effective, even in a keg.