Post-fermantation ruins...What are they?

[midilli]

Hi everyone!
This is my first post here.
And i am looking for an answer about the issue that i had during my first homemade wine making. Could anyone give an idea of what might be the reason of these ruins on the wine surface?

Here are some details about my process:
- I used syrah grapes only.
- No additional sugar & yeast. Did not wash the grapes after harvest. The last measured sugar was 25brix just before the harvest.
- First fermentation / maceration took 5 days.
- Second fermantation took 3 weeks (CO2 releasing ended after 2 weeks). Then i opened the barrel to remove the sediment and transefered whole wine to another barrel.
- CO2 started to releasing again and this third fermantation process took 3 weeks. Attached shot was taken after this process just before bottling.

I'd be glad if anyone can advise either i did anything wrong, or not.
Cheers.

 

[Jim Welch]

Looks like micoderma to my unprofessional eye. Personally I think it was in a bucket for 3 weeks too long unless it was under air lock after the initial vigorous fermentation was over. Also, did you add any meta k?
I’d carefully rack it off trying to avoid transferring any of it and wack it with meta k. Do you have a Carboy or narrrow neck jugs? You need to minimize headspace at this point.

 

[midilli]

Looks like micoderma to my unprofessional eye. Personally I think it was in a bucket for 3 weeks too long unless it was under air lock after the initial vigorous fermentation was over. Also, did you add any meta k?
I’d carefully rack it off trying to avoid transferring any of it and wack it with meta k. Do you have a Carboy or narrrow neck jugs? You need to minimize headspace at this point.

Hi Jim,
My bucket was under air lock during 3 weeks of fermantation. I waited till the co2 releasing end.
This was my first trial of making wine at home and was thinking to make it as natural as I can, so i did not use any additive including Meta K.

Actually, this was a week ago and i removed all of them from the surface and bottled the rest after I leached all the wine using very thin filter.

Any idea to avoid this to happen for the next time?

Much appreciated for your reply.

 

[winemaker81]

Any idea to avoid this to happen for the next time?

K-meta is added to wine to prevent and/or solve a lot of problems, including micoderma. Wines made without K-meta typically have a much shorter shelf life, and are far more likely to develop complications.

Did you bottle the wine already? If you didn't treat the micoderma, you're going to have bottles of vinegar.

Also, if we're talking about this year's wine, its WAY too soon to bottle. Assuming it doesn't turn bad, it will drop sediment in the bottle. The rule I was originally taught was to not bottle before 4 months old.

I wrote a post describing a simple process for making wine, which will take about 15 minutes to read. I suggest you review that. It doesn't explain everything nor is is the only way to do things, but it walks through the basic process.

Then navigate to the MoreWine! Manuals in my sig and down load the red wine manual. Don't try to read it in one sitting -- it's something like 70 pages, and it goes far more into depth. Skim it a couple of times to get more detail regarding the process.

 

[Jim Welch]

IF it’s micoderma, that needs oxygen to live iirc, and if I’m correct that means it wasn’t sealed my friend.

 

[winemaker81]

@midilli, post more details about your wine.

From what I understand at this time, your wine is not in a good place. It's not irredeemable, but it has challenges.

 

[midilli]

IF it’s micoderma, that needs oxygen to live iirc, and if I’m correct that means it wasn’t sealed my friend.

Well, I was using this PPP bucket which is made specifically for fermantation. Would you think that it may not seal perfectly? Besides, since the air lock was working, can we still talk about an air leakage?

 

[midilli]

K-meta is added to wine to prevent and/or solve a lot of problems, including micoderma. Wines made without K-meta typically have a much shorter shelf life, and are far more likely to develop complications.

Did you bottle the wine already? If you didn't treat the micoderma, you're going to have bottles of vinegar.

Also, if we're talking about this year's wine, its WAY too soon to bottle. Assuming it doesn't turn bad, it will drop sediment in the bottle. The rule I was originally taught was to not bottle before 4 months old.

I wrote a post describing a simple process for making wine, which will take about 15 minutes to read. I suggest you review that. It doesn't explain everything nor is is the only way to do things, but it walks through the basic process.

Then navigate to the MoreWine! Manuals in my sig and down load the red wine manual. Don't try to read it in one sitting -- it's something like 70 pages, and it goes far more into depth. Skim it a couple of times to get more detail regarding the process.

Thank you for your response. I will definetly review your guide that you have mentioned.

Since the CO2 releasing ended in my process, I just did not want to wait further for bottling, thinking that i might face to any spoilage as I did not use any preservative additive. I tried to remove all of those ruins from the surface before I bottle the wine, and I think if it is micoderma it will need oxygen which does not exist in the bottle? What do you think?

 

[midilli]

@midilli, post more details about your wine.

From what I understand at this time, your wine is not in a good place. It's not irredeemable, but it has challenges.

They are all bottled right now. Actually, not thinking to step into what has been done already, but trying to learn either I am doing something wrong, or not, to prevent having the same issue for the next time. If I have a sealing issue, then I should change the buckets that I have.

 

[winemaker81]

They are all bottled right now. Actually, not thinking to step into what has been done already, but trying to learn either I am doing something wrong, or not, to prevent having the same issue for the next time. If I have a sealing issue, then I should change the buckets that I have.

Your problem is a complete misunderstanding of the process of making wine.

This forum has dozens of regulars who have experience both in making wine AND in helping beginners. You came to the right place.

First -- I'm going to beat you over the head with the "P" word -- Patience. Winemaking is a procrastinator's dream. Other than sometimes hectic work in the first couple of weeks, winemaking can be more boring that watching grass grow or watching golf.

Ok, I lied -- nothing is more boring than watching golf!

There are few things in winemaking that require rushing.

Second -- unless I'm way off base, you need to unbottle your wine and put it back in a carboy. Add 1/2 tsp K-meta in 19-23 liters of wine to address the micoderma. If the carboy is not full to within 3" of the bottom of the stopper, add a dry red wine. At this point it doesn't matter what varietal, as long as it's a decent tasting red wine.

The K-meta will hopefully handle the micoderma. Expect to get sediment in the carboy. This is fine lees, which is yeast cells. Ignore it for now.

After a week, pull a small sample -- smell and taste it. What does it smell and taste like?

 

[midilli]

Your problem is a complete misunderstanding of the process of making wine.

This forum has dozens of regulars who have experience both in making wine AND in helping beginners. You came to the right place.

First -- I'm going to beat you over the head with the "P" word -- Patience. Winemaking is a procrastinator's dream. Other than sometimes hectic work in the first couple of weeks, winemaking can be more boring that watching grass grow or watching golf.

Ok, I lied -- nothing is more boring than watching golf!

There are few things in winemaking that require rushing.

Second -- unless I'm way off base, you need to unbottle your wine and put it back in a carboy. Add 1/2 tsp K-meta in 19-23 liters of wine to address the micoderma. If the carboy is not full to within 3" of the bottom of the stopper, add a dry red wine. At this point it doesn't matter what varietal, as long as it's a decent tasting red wine.

The K-meta will hopefully handle the micoderma. Expect to get sediment in the carboy. This is fine lees, which is yeast cells. Ignore it for now.

After a week, pull a small sample -- smell and taste it. What does it smell and taste like?

Actually, i do not use carboy for the fermentation, instead using this PPP bucket >> Bucket
As i understood after i unbottle the wine i have to add K-meta and keep it in that bucket under the air lock...Correct?
Do you think that a week is enough to keep it as it is? How long do i have to wait?
Cheers.

P.S. Watching any kind of sports is fun for me, including golf =)

 

[Rice_Guy]

Any idea to avoid this to happen for the next time?

microorganisms are classed as needing oxygen or able to live under CO2. A surface film would indicate that there was oxygen available.
My pattern is to remove the young wine from a flat bucket when the sugar/ gravity drops to 1.010 with the intention of having some active gas push the oxygen out of a carboy.
The next part in making wine is to let solids and yeast settle out. This should be at least a month. Fine solids then settle out and this can be several months. Fine solids don’t hurt the flavor, it just looks pretty to have a clean glass.
K meta translates into potassium metabisulphite. I use powder since I can measure 0.01gm. Another form of this is campden tablets. A tablet is half a gram.

Welcome to Wine Making Talk

 

[winemaker81]

Actually, i do not use carboy for the fermentation, instead using this PPP bucket >> Bucket
As i understood after i unbottle the wine i have to add K-meta and keep it in that bucket under the air lock...Correct?
Do you think that a week is enough to keep it as it is? How long do i have to wait?
Cheers.

P.S. Watching any kind of sports is fun for me, including golf =)

Unbottle into the primary fermenter, the PPP bucket. It's easier to pour the bottles in and far easier to stir in the K-meta.

Then rack into a carboy, and top up to within 3" of the stopper with red wine. Any good tasting dry red will work.

Now comes the Bat of Patience! I warned you!!!





Seriously, let the wine set for 3 months. If you see a reoccurrence of anything growing in the neck of the carboy, use a damp paper towel to remove it as best you can. Some will recommend gently pouring 1 oz vodka in to help kill an infection if one reappears.

You will probably have sediment drop -- this is fine lees (yeast hulls) and is harmless.

At this point you can probably bottle -- rack off the sediment and add 1/4 tsp K-meta, stirring well.

However, I recommend you wait at least another 3 months to bottle. For Syrah, a common recommendation on this forum is to bottle after it's at least 9 months old. Wine undergoes a lot of chemical changes during the first 4 to 12 months, and having it go through those changes as a single entity produces consistent bottles. A heavier red such as Syrah needs more time to meld than does a much lighter wine such as Sauvignon Blanc.

Every time you touch the wine, taste it and record your impressions. Put the notes away and don't look at them. At bottling, reserve 2 bottles, to open at 6 and 12 months of age. Again record notes. After opening the 12 month bottle, read your notes first to last. This will teach you a lot about how wine ages.

 

[midilli]

microorganisms are classed as needing oxygen or able to live under CO2. A surface film would indicate that there was oxygen available.
My pattern is to remove the young wine from a flat bucket when the sugar/ gravity drops to 1.010 with the intention of having some active gas push the oxygen out of a carboy.
The next part in making wine is to let solids and yeast settle out. This should be at least a month. Fine solids then settle out and this can be several months. Fine solids don’t hurt the flavor, it just looks pretty to have a clean glass.
K meta translates into potassium metabisulphite. I use powder since I can measure 0.01gm. Another form of this is campden tablets. A tablet is half a gram.

Welcome to Wine Making Talk

As far as i understand from the answers given so far, there must be a sealing problem with my buckets which resulted the oxygen remaining (unfilled height was about 13cm as I tried show in the attached shot, now it makes me feel like as it was too much). I will try to use carboy for the next time.

 

[midilli]

Unbottle into the primary fermenter, the PPP bucket. It's easier to pour the bottles in and far easier to stir in the K-meta.

Then rack into a carboy, and top up to within 3" of the stopper with red wine. Any good tasting dry red will work.

Now comes the Bat of Patience! I warned you!!!

View attachment 107630



Seriously, let the wine set for 3 months. If you see a reoccurrence of anything growing in the neck of the carboy, use a damp paper towel to remove it as best you can. Some will recommend gently pouring 1 oz vodka in to help kill an infection if one reappears.

You will probably have sediment drop -- this is fine lees (yeast hulls) and is harmless.

At this point you can probably bottle -- rack off the sediment and add 1/4 tsp K-meta, stirring well.

However, I recommend you wait at least another 3 months to bottle. For Syrah, a common recommendation on this forum is to bottle after it's at least 9 months old. Wine undergoes a lot of chemical changes during the first 4 to 12 months, and having it go through those changes as a single entity produces consistent bottles. A heavier red such as Syrah needs more time to meld than does a much lighter wine such as Sauvignon Blanc.

Every time you touch the wine, taste it and record your impressions. Put the notes away and don't look at them. At bottling, reserve 2 bottles, to open at 6 and 12 months of age. Again record notes. After opening the 12 month bottle, read your notes first to last. This will teach you a lot about how wine ages.

Thank you man for your efforts in replying. Much appreciated.

Just wondering one thing:
In general, on which stage do you add PMS to your wine? I mean, i understand that the pms kills all living forms including yeasts in the wine, which means when i add pms fermentation will be stopped, but the thing is I saw the micoderma after the fermantation ended...Sounds like I have no option other than ending the fermentation by adding pms, or if i do not want to stop it manually and if there is any problem during the fermantation like sealing issue I will definetly face the micoderma again. So it eems like I have to find a solution to this oxygen, next time I will try to use carboy or fill the bucket with wine at higher level. Agree with this?

 

[Jim Welch]

I’d like to offer an alternative way to get meta k in your bottles with out dumping but will require uncorking. You can make a 10% meta k solution and using a dosing syringe dose each bottle with an appropriate amount of this solution and record. If interested I can elaborate.

 

[midilli]

I’d like to offer an alternative way to get meta k in your bottles with out dumping but will require uncorking. You can make a 10% meta k solution and using a dosing syringe dose each bottle with an appropriate amount of this solution and record. If interested I can elaborate.

Yes, please Jim. Will be glad to review further details, like %10 meta k; how much gram or cl should I add?

 

[sour_grapes]

I mean, i understand that the pms kills all living forms including yeasts in the wine, which means when i add pms fermentation will be stopped,

No, this is not true. K-meta does NOT kill wine yeasts. Wine yeasts have evolved and/or been selected to tolerate levels of sulfite that are sufficient to kill most bacteria.

 

[mainshipfred]

First of all, welcome to the forum!

It has always been my understanding the only way to remove mycoderma was through reverse osmosis which is not practical for the home winemaker. I believe adding K-meta to an affected wine may only slow it's growth.

There may be a slight terminology issue as well. The first fermentation is alcoholic fermentation (5-10 days) which is the only fermentation that doesn't require O2 control. There is enough CO2 given off at this stage to protect the wine.

Secondary fermentation has 2 meanings. In kit wines it is used as the clearing process in an attempt to force clearing to bottle early. Secondary in the grape or commercial world is malolactic fermentation which does require protection by reducing it's exposure to O2. Sulfites cannot be used at this time due to the bacteria's sensitivity to sulfites.

Third fermentation is a term I have never heard of.

Also dealing with native yeasts requires a little knowledge and additional monitoring to assure you have a good ferment that has the possibility of not finishing dry.

I'm afraid the wine with 5 weeks of additional exposure to that large of a surface area of O2 is probably not salvageable. Hopefully it's only a small amount.

 

[wineview]

I’m curious to know what the wine tasted like when you bottled? I typically leave my wine in a glass carboy for 12 months racking three times before bottling.