Does anyone know if rhubarb has a lot of tartaric acid? The wine tastes good but is overly tart. PH is low but acceptable. I think TA is probably very high.. I should get my new reagents and be able to test it in a few days. I’m wondering if cold stabilization would help reduce TA.
Pressed Rhubarb Wine
- Thread starter ChuckD
- Start date
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All sources I have ever seen only reference the high levels of oxalic acid. (Which is much higher in the leaves than the stalks.) I don't know if the prevalence of oxalic overshadows the other acids, but I never seem to be able to find a list of any acids other than oxalic.
Rhurbarb does not have tartaric acid.
Rhubarb has malic acid so you could run MLF,,, I haven’t tried MLF. ,, I have done treatments as 71B or Malurvurn B to remove malic. My impression is that low malic changes the flavor notes so it seems artificial.
FG was 0.996 a few days ago so I racked it for bulk aging. The taste is all rhubarb with a little wild grape foxyness. But the acidity is way too high (19.5g/L), it’s like sucking on a rhubarb stalk. I tried sweetening some to see if I can balance it but all I ended up with is acidic syrup!
I need to reduce the TA. I checked a TA reduction calculator. I have 5 gallons (19L). With a target TA of 6, the calculator calls for 171g of calcium carbonate. I have read that you should go slow, so I was thinking about adding 1/3 of the recommended amount to start. I also have a 2L jug that I will leave untreated for comparison.
Questions: Does this sound reasonable? How long should I wait to test (taste and TA)?
I need to reduce the TA. I checked a TA reduction calculator. I have 5 gallons (19L). With a target TA of 6, the calculator calls for 171g of calcium carbonate. I have read that you should go slow, so I was thinking about adding 1/3 of the recommended amount to start. I also have a 2L jug that I will leave untreated for comparison.
Questions: Does this sound reasonable? How long should I wait to test (taste and TA)?
? How long, calcium has low solubility therefore is slow to react. A gut feel answer is it should have reacted in a month. Might be better to say what is good enough as a guess is 50% in a week and 75% in two weeks and 87.5% in three weeks and 93.75% in four weeks.
* six grams per liter finished TA is low. Puting rhurbarb in contest with 8gm/ liter scores worse than 10gm/ liter. A very quick test is to take a TA sample and taste it, (yes the MSDS has two ingredients water and NaOH)
If I am doing a new lot of ingredient or new supplier, I would do a titration either one drop read pH two drops read pH and volume should be 0.1ml, four drops should be 0.2 ml ? pH etc. OR titratable to 3.1 read volume next to 3.2 read volume next 3.3 read volume etc etc. ,,, with a curve you could determine grams of CaCO3 to get to an end point like pH 3.5. I wouldn’t run fruit wine above that. Again taste is your driver, I taste titrations.
* being careful when I know the lab bench answer is adding 50% then react and taste, add 25% react and taste, add 12.5% then react
* you mention a two liter sub sample ,,, the chemistry vs flavor is faster if you create a two liter of alkaline rhurbarb sub sample for the fridge and do an add back treatment with fully reacted wine.
* six grams per liter finished TA is low. Puting rhurbarb in contest with 8gm/ liter scores worse than 10gm/ liter. A very quick test is to take a TA sample and taste it, (yes the MSDS has two ingredients water and NaOH)
If I am doing a new lot of ingredient or new supplier, I would do a titration either one drop read pH two drops read pH and volume should be 0.1ml, four drops should be 0.2 ml ? pH etc. OR titratable to 3.1 read volume next to 3.2 read volume next 3.3 read volume etc etc. ,,, with a curve you could determine grams of CaCO3 to get to an end point like pH 3.5. I wouldn’t run fruit wine above that. Again taste is your driver, I taste titrations.
* being careful when I know the lab bench answer is adding 50% then react and taste, add 25% react and taste, add 12.5% then react
* you mention a two liter sub sample ,,, the chemistry vs flavor is faster if you create a two liter of alkaline rhurbarb sub sample for the fridge and do an add back treatment with fully reacted wine.
Thanks. The calculator calls for 146g to reach a final TA of 10g/L. So If I add the full amount to the 2L jug and let it age in the fridge for a month, I can use that alkaline wine to blend into the full batch to taste?
That would simplify things greatly. And seems like a “safer” way to hit my mark without the dreaded acid yo-yo.
I picked a target of 6g/L because I saw it in a Keller book as a general target for fruit wines. This is the first time I have considered TA in any wine.
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Turns out it was 3L extra so I added the total amount of calcium carbonate to it and it’s sitting in the fridge. Looks like a blueberry milkshake with a 1/2 inch of calcium carbonate on the bottom of the jug. I figure I’ll stir it up every day to see how much will dissolve. I didn’t take a pH or taste it… I’m sure it would taste like chalk.
If you we’re wondering what it looks like here it is… it settles out within a half hour. I wonder if it will all dissolve.
WHAT MAKES THE CORRECT TA?
Pulled out some data on rhurbarb wines BLACK DIAMOND. Some are commercial, some collected in contests and some mine.
Plotted with numbers from contests for first place wines RED TRIANGLE.
Backwards engineering what is pleasing, I see that good wines tend to follow the sloped blue line. Yes there is variation as a grape wine with lots of tannin tastes like it has a higher TA. Data and tasting notes in the computer are below.
Pulled out some data on rhurbarb wines BLACK DIAMOND. Some are commercial, some collected in contests and some mine.
Plotted with numbers from contests for first place wines RED TRIANGLE.
Backwards engineering what is pleasing, I see that good wines tend to follow the sloped blue line. Yes there is variation as a grape wine with lots of tannin tastes like it has a higher TA. Data and tasting notes in the computer are below.
% TA | Specific Gravity | pH | |
0.86 | 1.017 | 3.34 | Best of Show/Intense aromatics |
1.08 | 1.019 | 3.26 | |
1.19 | 1.012 | 3.97 | SecondPlace/Stuck/ ,,, 2019 |
0.81 | 1.009 | 3.28 | MalicEatingYeast/ThirdPlace ,,, 2020 |
1.36 | 1.044 | 3.28 | Control 71B ,,, 2020 |
2.07 | 1.047 | 3.10 | balanced/Intense |
0.82 | 1.024 | 3.32 | |
0.66 | 1.058 | 3.56 | thin/notNatural/good aroma |
1.24 | 1.008 | 3.75 | true flavor/Aromatic/good |
1.31 | 1.015 | 3.29 | blue at state fair |
1.34 | 1.009 | 3.31 | WorkInProgress/Mine |
Thanks David. Here’s my plan. I have 3L of the rhubarb with 146g of calcium carbonate in the fridge. I’ll mix it up daily for a month to see how much will dissolve in the wine. Then I will let it settle and rack off the clear “alkaline” wine and use that for bench testing with the acidic rhubarb wine until I like the result (and monitoring pH). When I reach that point run another TA.
If I don’t have enough of the alkaline wine I’ll draw off three liters of the acidic wine first and put it in with the undissolved calcium carbonate to make more.
Hopefully in this way I can sneak up on a less acidic wine. Your graph shows I may not have to reduce TA as much as I originally thought. I’d like to get an off-dry wine.
So pretty....
My wife made a rhubarb sugar syrup and has been using it for mixed drinks. It's pretty good. She is not on board the wine train and scowled at me when I told her the syrup was the first step in making rhubarb wine.
I got nervous about that high pH slurry sitting in the fridge (no pH protection). It’s a dreary spring day, so I poured off 2 quarts of clear treated wine and set up a bench test.
Calcium carb. treated wine, pH - 5.87
Rhubarb wine, pH - 3.29
Treatment Rate:
1t/100ml, pH - 3.35
1.5t/100ml, pH - 3.38
2t/100ml, pH - 3.40
2.5t/100ml, pH - 3.44
I let them rest for a half hour then tasted. I felt the 2t/100ml sample had the right amount of acid and it balanced well with just a touch of simple syrup. I calculated a total addition of 7.8 cups for the 5-gallon carboy. I also added 1/2 spiral of medium toast French oak.
The taste is all rhubarb with only a hint of wild grape (concord taste). I really wish it had more grape taste… during fermentation it was more pronounced.
I tasted the calcium carbonate treated wine and it was truly disgusting
. The best I could describe it is cheap, really watered down vodka with a hint of rhubarb and a slightly bitter aftertaste. Flat doesn’t begin to describe it.
I didn’t run a TA again… I’ll do that in a few months.
Calcium carb. treated wine, pH - 5.87
Rhubarb wine, pH - 3.29
Treatment Rate:
1t/100ml, pH - 3.35
1.5t/100ml, pH - 3.38
2t/100ml, pH - 3.40
2.5t/100ml, pH - 3.44
I let them rest for a half hour then tasted. I felt the 2t/100ml sample had the right amount of acid and it balanced well with just a touch of simple syrup. I calculated a total addition of 7.8 cups for the 5-gallon carboy. I also added 1/2 spiral of medium toast French oak.
The taste is all rhubarb with only a hint of wild grape (concord taste). I really wish it had more grape taste… during fermentation it was more pronounced.
I tasted the calcium carbonate treated wine and it was truly disgusting
. The best I could describe it is cheap, really watered down vodka with a hint of rhubarb and a slightly bitter aftertaste. Flat doesn’t begin to describe it. I didn’t run a TA again… I’ll do that in a few months.
Terryfirma
Member
If she leaves it in the refrigerator a couple years it will be a nice wine!!?
Most wines are really bad when one neutralizes the acid. ,,, (I use NaOH) ,,, As part of judging wine at contest we have acid blend so that we can “fix” a flavor then give suggestions.tasted the calcium carbonate treated wine and it was truly disgusting
