Punching down the cap..

[blumentopferde]

Since second runs have overtaken this topic I would like to add some question on it: ;-)
I don't really understand of how it works. Following the instructions on winemakermag, I just add sugared water and press again? Why would that work? wouldn't the added liquid just run through without leaving much to extract?
Or would I leave the sugar water with the pomace for a few days and get it through another fermentation process before I press?
Could you explain that a little bit more to me?

 

[BernardSmith]

That is precisely what winemakermag suggests you do. In other words, you treat the pomace as if it is crushed grapes and you ferment again on those grapes. Given that you have extracted much or all of the juice, you add sugar water to the pomace (and the article suggests you add tartaric acid) and the yeast still in the pomace is enough to restart the fermentation immediately. You know that because a few hours later the cap is back on top of the sugar water and as you punch down that cap two or three times a day color and flavor is extracted and the yeast produce wine. I think mine was at a pH of 3.4 when I removed the pomace a second time and was close to 1.000.

 

[blumentopferde]

Thanks Bernard for making that clear! For me that sounded like "just add some ingredients and press again"... X-D

To add something to both topics at the same time: I have been experimenting with something similar like second runs. I was making some kind of pomace wine, I just collected all my pomace - mostly from white grapes - added some yeast to it and and let it ferment for a week and then pressed it. And that actually worked - the fermentation process would still extract considerable amounts of liquid out of the skins. Obviously there is no way to "push down the cap", as the fermentation process starts with much more solids than liquids, so my work around was to just lay some plastic film directly on the pomace and let it ferment.

And guess what, that worked! No mold, nor off flavours and I still still extract about 50% of the pomaces weight into wine! The result is weird though, so I guess from now on I will make common second runs ;-)

 

[BernardSmith]

But that was my experience too with red grapes. You crush the grapes so there is virtually no juice for the first week but there is enough juice after a day or so to enable you to punch down the fruit. Indeed, I suspect, but I could be wrong, if there was not enough liquid there would be no way that the fruit would form a cap because the yeast would not have enough liquid to transport the sugars through their cell walls. Certainly, my VERY limited experience suggests that crushing the grapes results in a very, very small amount of juice (even with the addition of enzymes to help extract juice and break down pectins) but after a few days the yeast extract a very significant amount of juice.
But I am curious: if these are grapes for white wine don't you press them immediately? Are you also fermenting on the pressed grapes for the first run?

 

[blumentopferde]

But that was my experience too with red grapes. You crush the grapes so there is virtually no juice for the first week but there is enough juice after a day or so to enable you to punch down the fruit. Indeed, I suspect, but I could be wrong, if there was not enough liquid there would be no way that the fruit would form a cap because the yeast would not have enough liquid to transport the sugars through their cell walls. Certainly, my VERY limited experience suggests that crushing the grapes results in a very, very small amount of juice (even with the addition of enzymes to help extract juice and break down pectins) but after a few days the yeast extract a very significant amount of juice.

Sounds legit, but I don't have that much experience with red wine either ;-)
I just can tell you that if you make a second run without additional water, the pomace will stay mostly solid till the fermentation is over. Still the amount of extract is quite considerable. That could also be due to the fact that I am using a hydro press which won't extract as much as a basket press...

But I am curious: if these are grapes for white wine don't you press them immediately? Are you also fermenting on the pressed grapes for the first run?

Sure. I just had a normal first run, but that just got about 50% of juice out of the grapes, so didn't want to throw away all that pomace and gave it a try. ;-)

Anyways, the taste was just too intensive for white wine, but maybe it would work well on a red, who knows?

 

[winemaker81]

To expand upon what Bernard has said, 2nd run wine works on the premise that the pomace still contains "goodness", for lack of a better term.

Pressing the 1st run wine has extracted most of the liquid and most (maybe all) of the sugar. So we add water, sugar, tannin, and acid blend to fill in the holes, and let it ferment using the existing yeast.

I will press this year's 2nd run tomorrow -- for each 2 gallons of wine I got from the first run, I added: 1 gallon water, 2 lbs sugar, 2 tsp tannin, 1 tsp acid blend. The short answer is you get 1/2 the yield of the 1st run.

Keep in mind that the 2nd run will be lighter than the 1st run, it has lesser body and it's not a deep red wine. However, it's still a nice wine, and you got it for the cost of sugar and some additives. Last year's 2nd run was bottled today -- 14 gallons that has been in a barrel since December. Previously I bottled a 5 gallon carboy. For about $30 USD, I got 19 gallons of a lighter wine.

 

[winemaker81]

For this year's 2nd run, I added 15 gallons of water to the pomace from 576 lbs (16 lugs) of grapes. We pressed today and pressed hard, the cakes were dry when removed from the press. My yield was 19 gallons, so the pomace held 4 gallons of wine. There's a lot of sediment, so I'm guessing I'll have ~16 to 17 gallons of finished wine. At $0.38/bottle (USD), it's worth the effort.

 

[blumentopferde]

To expand upon what Bernard has said, 2nd run wine works on the premise that the pomace still contains "goodness", for lack of a better term.

Pressing the 1st run wine has extracted most of the liquid and most (maybe all) of the sugar. So we add water, sugar, tannin, and acid blend to fill in the holes, and let it ferment using the existing yeast.

I'm just figuring out that it would be quite a waste if I didn't do a second run: I use a hydro press and it seems to leave a lot of "goodness" in the pomace.
This year I had about 30 liters of white wine and was left with about 14 liters of pomace after pressing (weighing it would have been more informative though...).

I also added yeast to the pomace - without adding sugar and water - to let it ferment too. After the maceration process I pressed again and could still extract 7 liters. So about 50% of the "goodness" was still left in the pomace.

Since now it is too late for a "regular" second run, I now added water, sugar and acid to the wine and hope that this will restart the fermentation...

 

[balatonwine]

Neither wine is going to win an award for "best red wine color of the year".

However, both have far more body and flavor than you'd expect, based upon the color.

In my humble opinion, what matters if the total experience. Even if the color was lacking, it can be made up with nose and or palate. And the three need not be weighted evenly. I would put eye lowest on the list, especially if nose and palate are good.

 

[David Violante]

How would saignee affect a second run? I imagine the skins might have more potential for a better second run, or would the second run be more astringent / tannic?

 

[winemaker81]

How would saignee affect a second run?

I would not expect saignee to change the 2nd run. Fermentation will pull the same "goodness" from the pomace either way -- saignee has less juice so the "goodness" is more concentrated.

 

[Mac60]

For this year's 2nd run, I added 15 gallons of water to the pomace from 576 lbs (16 lugs) of grapes. We pressed today and pressed hard, the cakes were dry when removed from the press. My yield was 19 gallons, so the pomace held 4 gallons of wine. There's a lot of sediment, so I'm guessing I'll have ~16 to 17 gallons of finished wine. At $0.38/bottle (USD), it's worth the effort.

Bryan,
I have been seriously thinking about this since we do 40 lugs each year, I feel we can substantially increase our yield. I just thought it wasn't worth the effort, however after reading this thread. I'm rethinking it, however I'm not sure I fully understand the process.
I have a few questions, did you mentioned you use wine from the first press or did I misunderstand that.
Can you do a second run without adding wine from the first run?
Can you only use water, sugar, yeast nutrients, tannin's, tartaric acid and the pomace?

How did you decide to add 15 gallons of water to your 16 lugs? How much sugar, yeast nutraints, tannin and acid did you add?
If I use your numbers I come up with the following numbers do they sound correct? is there a formula you use.

Just based on extrapolating your numbers, my 1440 lbs (40 Lugs) I would have to add approx
38 gallons of water
76 lbs of sugar
320 Grams of Tannin's (4.2g/tsp)
160 Grams of Tartaric Acid
Do add the above to the pomace, measure the SG of the must, let ferment (5-7) days with the pomace, press once SG is reached. Is that the process?

Thanks
Mike

 

[VinesnBines]

I'll let Winemaker81 elaborate but to answer a few questions; you don't use any of the first run wine in the second run. The rule of thumb is to measure the amount of wine you pressed from the first run, then add 1/2 as much water and 2 pounds of sugar for each gallon of water. Adjust your nutrients and tannin to match the amount of water you add to the second run. So in your example, if you had 76 gallons of first run wine, then you go with the 38 gallons of water and 76 pounds of sugar.

 

[Mac60]

The rule of thumb is to measure the amount of wine you pressed from the first run, then add 1/2 as much water and 2 pounds of sugar for each gallon of water. Adjust your nutrients and tannin to match the amount of water you add to the second run.

OK you here's my example I did this year of my Super Tuscan
I yielded 90 gallons of wine from the free run and press of 36 Lugs (1296lbs)
1/2 of that is 45 gallons
45 gallons of water @ $2.44 Gal $109.80
90 pounds of sugar @ $1.44 per/lb $129
383 Grams Fermk K $20
383 Grams Tartaric Acid $11
383 Grams of Tannins FT Rouge $40
Total $309.80
Assume yield 65 gallons (325 Bottles) roughly 95 cents per bottle with the glass $2.00 is it worth the effort? Our 1st press batch cost us $5.38 $6.38 with the bottle. What do you all think?

 

[VinesnBines]

Here's an idea. Try with a smaller sample of leftover pomace and see what you think. Say 1/4 of the leftover from first run. That way you have less invested money wise and if you think it is not worth the effort, you won't be out so much money.
I think my second runs are worth the effort and money but I'm not processing as much as you are; yet.

 

[winemaker81]

What @VinesnBines said. Some go with 2-1/4 lbs sugar per gallon but I'm satisfied with 2. I add 1/4 to 1/2 tsp tannin and 1 to 2 tsp acid blend per gallon. Add nutrient as if it is a regular wine.

I added no enzymes as the 1st run was dosed with ScottZyme ColorPro, and I didn't think more would buy me anything. I used well water, which cut that expense from my bill, and it appears I got a better price on sugar buying in larger bags.

@VinesnBines's suggestion to start with a smaller amount is a great idea. You can also concentrate the used pomace -- this year I made four 4-lug batches, each producing 9-11 gallons of 1st run. I started the 2nd run with 3 of the batches, using 5 gallons of water each, then divided the pomace of the 4th batch between the 3.

Is it worth $0.95 USD/bottle? Following are my reasons, copied from another post:

As to why make a 2nd run? Let me count the ways!

• Increase yield by 50% at a fraction of the cost. Last year's wine cost $0.38 USD per bottle.
• Ages faster and is drinkable sooner, reducing the temptation to touch the 1st run early.
• More accessible to non-red wine drinkers.
• Dirt cheap cooking wine.
• It's a lighter wine for the days I don't want a heavy red but also don't want a white. Last year's 2nd run resembles a Pinot Noir in color, a bit lighter in body.

Then there's the most important reason:

• I get something else to ferment!

EDIT: I added 15 gallons of water to this year's 2nd run and hard pressed 20 gallons (raw). A surprising amount of wine is left in the pomace when not doing a really hard press.

 

[David Violante]

I've been thinking about where to post this thought. In homage to the original question I'll post it here. If it needs to go somewhere else, I'm happy to move it. I've been thinking about cap management, submerged cap, saignee, second run, temperatures, etc... and came up with the following draft of an idea (below). Do you think this will work? I was thinking of putting the pump on a basic timer that I can set to 1/2 hour runs three times a day. The pump draws juice from the must (via a gajillion hole pipe) and disperses it via eductor over the must, in which the cap is submerged. The cap plate can be held with gallon jugs of water or if it gets hot, gallon jugs of ice. This would keep the cap submerged / wet, aerate with oxygen, and could help with temperature control. Too much? Over thought? BEX is sending me an eductor to try (versus a straight hose in or a venturi contraption - which I might build just to try).

 

[Ajmassa]

I've been thinking about where to post this thought. In homage to the original question I'll post it here. If it needs to go somewhere else, I'm happy to move it. I've been thinking about cap management, submerged cap, saignee, second run, temperatures, etc... and came up with the following draft of an idea (below). Do you think this will work? I was thinking of putting the pump on a basic timer that I can set to 1/2 hour runs three times a day. The pump draws juice from the must (via a gajillion hole pipe) and disperses it via eductor over the must, in which the cap is submerged. The cap plate can be held with gallon jugs of water or if it gets hot, gallon jugs of ice. This would keep the cap submerged / wet, aerate with oxygen, and could help with temperature control. Too much? Over thought? BEX is sending me an eductor to try (versus a straight hose in or a venturi contraption - which I might build just to try).

View attachment 68984

interesting. And always good to see rough ideas sketched out like that.
What you drew up I think is probably very similar to many commercial setups for their pump-overs. I know most probably use a bottom filtered drain valve but I know I’ve seen the gajillion pipe method used on a larger commercial scale in videos as well. In the end tho wouldnt the cap plate be unnecessary? If you are able to perform routine pump overs to keep the cap saturated then is there really any need to weigh it down?
Also could use not just for pump-overs but “delastage” as well—-where the wine is removed and instead of directly pumped back on top it’s transferred to another vessel for a little bit before dumping back onto the skins.

 

[CDrew]

So this is all pretty interesting, but why not just punch it down? 100% effective, time proven, no effort. None of us home guys have professional equipment for pump overs and similar.

 

[Ajmassa]

So this is all pretty interesting, but why not just punch it down? 100% effective, time proven, no effort. None of us home guys have professional equipment for pump overs and similar.

The discussion originated from seeking out different solutions after learning they had to leave town for a few days during active fermentation.