Question: 4 vines on a small trellis

[Dantheman]

I decided to buy a few vines from double a vineyards and grow my grapes with the hopes of making a few gallons of homemade wine, 2 Cabernet, 1 merlot and 1 Malbec..I built a 12 foot Long trellis in my side yard, now I know it’s probably alittle small for 4 vines but what would be my best method of planting/training? I was thinking planting the vines at the base of the posts and single cordon facing each other, let me know what you think and what you would do thanks!
||Vine -3ft- -3ft- vine||vine -3ft- -3ft-vine||

 

[Rice_Guy]

It would be interesting to see a plat of the whole yard to see what you are trying to squeeze in and where sun is.

You are doing something which is not traditional. Each vine should have a support to be anchored on. The plant will not support itself! Ex. i have one 8’ fence post per plant, ,, most vineyards seem to use rebar. Your structure looks high/ six ft? this translates into all your grape work is over head. Is this comfortable? ex. for spraying over head, or for pruning, or for having friends in the yard. Most vineyards tie the vines on wires. Some will have one vine on one post with no cross members, this makes a small plant and lower yield but is relatively easy to maintain. (There was a PVC setup in winemaker Magazine two years ago). Another maintenance treated wood has a fifteen year life. Your grapes will not start to produce any quantity for about five years. ,,, How do you maintain your wood trellis? it will look unkempt in ten years.

With three foot spacing the vine will try to fill 200% of the space you are giving it. The natural tendency for the plant will be to grow in all directions! Translation -> two vines will not stay separated if they have one spot of land. They will fight each other for water and minerals. The tendency will be to grow sideways about three feet and grow both directions on the support. To maintain separation means constant pruning. Pruning means reduced yield/ plant size. ,,, Basically I would have a post for each of the vines. The tightest spacing I have seen was in Europe with about a meter between rows and four foot plant to plant.


I would like to start with how much space do you have for each root and then assume a circle that the roots fill with a similar circle that the canopy fills. ,,, your canopy could cantilever over the cement driveway or take over the fence.
You can make it work with two plants on one spot since grapes are weeds, ,,, BUT traditional methods do better for yield.

 

[Dantheman]

It would be interesting to see a plat of the whole yard to see what you are trying to squeeze in and where sun is.

You are doing something which is not traditional. Each vine should have a support to be anchored on. The plant will not support itself! Ex. i have one 8’ fence post per plant, ,, most vineyards seem to use rebar. Your structure looks high/ six ft? this translates into all your grape work is over head. Is this comfortable? ex. for spraying over head, or for pruning, or for having friends in the yard. Most vineyards tie the vines on wires. Some will have one vine on one post with no cross members, this makes a small plant and lower yield but is relatively easy to maintain. (There was a PVC setup in winemaker Magazine two years ago). Another maintenance treated wood has a fifteen year life. Your grapes will not start to produce any quantity for about five years. ,,, How do you maintain your wood trellis? it will look unkempt in ten years.

With three foot spacing the vine will try to fill 200% of the space you are giving it. The natural tendency for the plant will be to grow in all directions! Translation -> two vines will not stay separated if they have one spot of land. They will fight each other for water and minerals. The tendency will be to grow sideways about three feet and grow both directions on the support. To maintain separation means constant pruning. Pruning means reduced yield/ plant size. ,,, Basically I would have a post for each of the vines. The tightest spacing I have seen was in Europe with about a meter between rows and four foot plant to plant.
View attachment 100761
View attachment 100762
I would like to start with how much space do you have for each root and then assume a circle that the roots fill with a similar circle that the canopy fills. ,,, your canopy could cantilever over the cement driveway or take over the fence.
You can make it work with two plants on one spot since grapes are weeds, ,,, BUT traditional methods do better for yield.
View attachment 100760

Thank you for the detailed response, it may be hard to see in the photo but I do have 4 support guide wires across the posts, starting at 24” from the ground, I’ll attach another photo with what I plan on doing, but I think your right, 3, wide of space is gonna be to tight for growth.. am I better off just planting two vines on center of 6’?

 

[sour_grapes]

I decided to buy a few vines from double a vineyards and grow my grapes with the hopes of making a few gallons of homemade wine, 2 Cabernet, 1 merlot and 1 Malbec..I built a 12 foot Long trellis in my side yard, now I know it’s probably alittle small for 4 vines but what would be my best method of planting/training? I was thinking planting the vines at the base of the posts and single cordon facing each other, let me know what you think and what you would do thanks!
||Vine -3ft- -3ft- vine||vine -3ft- -3ft-vine||
View attachment 100759

Totally jealous of the outdoor sauna. Mine is in the basement, but I did build it with a glass-block window to the yard for some natural light.

 

[Rice_Guy]

Grape physiology; Some varieties will grow up and some will grow downward. Your lines assume that you prune each year down to a cordon which is 30 or so above ground. Then the fruiting shoots all grow upward. With the minnesota hybrids I have the plant won’t grow like that. The fruit is in a zone about 15” below the cordon. ALL fruiting buds (about ten) are on a cordon. Look at cordon placement as “What will be convenient for pruning/ harvesting/ spraying. Make ie easy on yourself, ,, the vine will fill in space you give it
I have seen some vines on wires with cordons at four and a system called high wire with cordons at six feet. You need to let the trellis fit the normal growth direction. (ask the nursery)

 

[Dantheman]

Totally jealous of the outdoor sauna. Mine is in the basement, but I did build it with a glass-block window to the yard for some natural light.

Haha thanks I’ve always wanted one so last year I took the plunge, love it, use it at least 3-4 times a week

 

[BarrelMonkey]

With three foot spacing the vine will try to fill 200% of the space you are giving it. The natural tendency for the plant will be to grow in all directions! Translation -> two vines will not stay separated if they have one spot of land. They will fight each other for water and minerals. The tendency will be to grow sideways about three feet and grow both directions on the support. To maintain separation means constant pruning.

The proximity can be an advantage, since that competition for water and minerals can lead to reduced vigor and less excessive vegetative growth. But @Rice_Guy is right that you'll need to be pruning all year round: cutting back and tying up in winter, selecting fruiting canes in spring and canopy management in summer through harvest to reduce shading and promote ripening.

The tightest spacing I have seen was in Europe with about a meter between rows and four foot plant to plant.

My understanding was that metre-by-metre spacing was normal in France (particularly Champagne and Burgundy), and I thought that it was mandated by law in Champagne. However, it looks like there have been controversial moves to change the rules in recent years...

 

[Cynewulf]

I’ll push back on one thing @Rice_Guy said re: training. You’re planting vinifera and it’s a lot easier to train than Northern hybrids. I have both Cabernet Franc and hybrids and the Cabernet has an easy, predictable upright growth habit, while the hybrids (Marquette and Itasca) are a little wilder and require more work to train them (though I’m still able to train them to VSP). What you’re trying to do is not ideal, but if I were given the puzzle of fitting 4 vinifera vines into the space you’ve created, I would do it like this to give each vine at least 3 feet from its neighbor.

Your yield will be very low. I think it’s reasonable to estimate 0.5 to 1.0 lbs of quality fruit per linear foot, depending on maturity and health, so I’d expect you’ll get 6-14 lbs, which will not be enough for a gallon of finished wine.

 

[Dantheman]

I’ll push back on one thing @Rice_Guy said re: training. You’re planting vinifera and it’s a lot easier to train than Northern hybrids. I have both Cabernet Franc and hybrids and the Cabernet has an easy, predictable upright growth habit, while the hybrids (Marquette and Itasca) are a little wilder and require more work to train them (though I’m still able to train them to VSP). What you’re trying to do is not ideal, but if I were given the puzzle of fitting 4 vinifera vines into the space you’ve created, I would do it like this to give each vine at least 3 feet from its neighbor.
View attachment 100788
Your yield will be very low. I think it’s reasonable to estimate 0.5 to 1.0 lbs of quality fruit per linear foot, depending on maturity and health, so I’d expect you’ll get 6-14 lbs, which will not be enough for a gallon of finished wine.

Thank you for the response, do you think I would have a high fruit yield with just 2 vines planted? Giving each plant 6 linear feet?

 

[Cynewulf]

Thank you for the response, do you think I would have a high fruit yield with just 2 vines planted? Giving each plant 6 linear feet?

Not necessarily, though sometimes yields can depend on the vigor of the individual vine. I think it’s better to think of yield in terms of linear feet of cordon/trellis than per vine. Then it will depend on the number of shoots you allow to grow and clusters per shoot. If spur pruning vinifera, one spur every 6 inches with two shoots per spur and two clusters per shoot is pretty typical and allows for both quality fruit and good canopy management. However, on 12 feet you may end up with 96 clusters at 0.25 lbs/cluster (best case) for 24lbs, enough for a little more than a gallon of finished wine. You might be able to push the vines to produce more.

 

[Obbnw]

I've got Malbec and tempranillos at 4' spacing. But I went tall, almost 10ft.

They do overlap, I do prune all summer long. I do use a ladder to prune and harvest.

Last year's yield was close to 8lbs per linear ft. This year I'm shooting for 6 lbs per lf.

I love the green wall look all summer and the wine is a bonus.

Looking at your spot, I'd probably only put 2 vines there. Especially if want to work from the ground and minimize maintenance.

I debated a 4' vs 6' spacing for a while. Basically it came down to sf of surface area. IE 6' x 6' = 36sf south facing (widthxhght) for typical vines versus 4' x 10' = 40sf for my layout.

I do have to work at keeping the higher part of the vine from shading the lower part.

 

[Dantheman]

what do you guys think if I was to anchor wire from a support behind my gutter? It would act as a trellis, This would give me 18 linear feet per vine, I attached a photo for reference

 

[Hazelemere]

I'd go Regent seedless. Delicious seedless grape.

 

[Rice_Guy]

I would do it if the shade is useful. Note that grapes are weeds and will also try growing on the roof and down the siding. This will take maintenance to manage growth.

 

[Snafflebit]

then a windstorm comes and pulls off your gutter. I would not do it. I would plant 2 Cabernet vines and call it a day. You can tie a shoot to a string from the top rail to form a trunk then split it into arms. 4” between spurs

 

[nanobrau]

I've got Malbec and tempranillos at 4' spacing. But I went tall, almost 10ft.

They do overlap, I do prune all summer long. I do use a ladder to prune and harvest.

Got any pictures to share? 10ft sounds extraordinarily tall for a grape trellis!

 

[Hazelemere]

I decided to buy a few vines from double a vineyards and grow my grapes with the hopes of making a few gallons of homemade wine, 2 Cabernet, 1 merlot and 1 Malbec..I built a 12 foot Long trellis in my side yard, now I know it’s probably alittle small for 4 vines but what would be my best method of planting/training? I was thinking planting the vines at the base of the posts and single cordon facing each other, let me know what you think and what you would do thanks!
||Vine -3ft- -3ft- vine||vine -3ft- -3ft-vine||
View attachment 100759

Train to single Guyot on 4 foot centers. 12 vertical shoots per cane up to 2 clusters of grapes per shoot.. Top them at 7 feet. Use 12 gauge wire at 2 feet. And pairs of 16 gauge wire after that every foot above that. Here is what it looks like in my vineyard. The 16 gauge is passed through staple and goes from the first post and in you case to the 2nd post and raps back to hold in place iwth chain on a nail so it can be loosed in the winter and tightened in the summer. All of the grapes are picked at about 2-3 feet above ground. What you are looking at has just been pruned of side shoots to one leaf to get light into the clusters and improve air circulation

 

[Hazelemere]

I'd go Regent seedless. Delicious seedless grape.

sorry I meant Reliance seedless.

 

[Obbnw]

Got any pictures to share? 10ft sounds extraordinarily tall for a grape trellis!

what do you guys think if I was to anchor wire from a support behind my gutter? It would act as a trellis, This would give me 18 linear feet per vine, I attached a photo for reference

This year I added the wire to the gutter although I agree with Snafflebit and don't consider it a permanent solution. I've got a metal roof and get roof avalanches on the driveway in winter so this fall I'm going to upgrade my roof avalanche suppression system and move the wires to avalanche suppression system. I'm not worried about wind this summer, the gutters do have a stout attachment and the high wind direction is mostly shielded by the neighbors house.

Photos...

In the token grape photo - the grapes on the lookers left are Tempranillo, the right are Malbec.

The garage is 20' wide. The malbec in the front corner of the garage has about 22 linear feet of "trellis" (10 ft over the door and 12' along the side).

 

[Rice_Guy]

free standing grapes,