Question about adjusting pH

[Cibb]

So last year a friend and I bought several juice buckets of red wine. He was 9ver and had a drink of mine and felt his wasn't as good what I found is he didnt adjust the pH which was very high when it came in.

His pH is 4.0 I've not tested the TA as of yet but I'd expect it to be low as well. This is finished from last season and bulk aged for 6 or 7 months now.

Is it too late to adjust the pH and help the wine before bottling or dump and call it a learning lesson?

 

[Scooter68]

I'm assuming it hasn't been bottled yet and is still bulk aging.

At this point you may not be able to regain all the taste qualities the differentiate your wine from his but it should help.
There's no reason you can't adjust it now. I would go very carefully. Whatever amount you think is needed cut that in half or by two thirds and add just half or one third of it now, stir and wait. It may take several days for the adjustment to be fully incorporated into the wine.
Then recheck the pH and repeat if needed.
ALSO be aware that a high pH (Low acid) situation can permit spoilage but since you didn't mention anything being 'off' about his wine, just not as good, his wine may just need that pH adjustment.

Also be aware that the wine could become cloudy after any addition. If that happens, then you just need to wait that out.

 

[balatonwine]

IMHO --- best to adjust for TA. Let pH fall where it may.

 

[Cibb]

No spoilage at this stage. It has good flavor it was just flat.

What causes the cloud and will anything be needed to clear the cloudyness?

 

[stickman]

Most likely Tartrates will cause some cloudiness, but will drop out on their own over time.

 

[Masbustelo]

xxx

 

[Cibb]

Also correct it isn't bottled yet in a carboy.

Thanks everyone. It sounds as though it may not wind up a top shelf but could still be a good drinkable wine we'll move forward. We ordered some tartaric acid today as we don't have enough to treat the wine fully.

 

[mainshipfred]

IMHO --- best to adjust for TA. Let pH fall where it may.

Not that I know right or wrong or good or bad but that is the exact opposite of what I've been told by 3 different wine makers. I didn't ask the question, fortunately, but one of them got pretty offensive when the question came up.

 

[Scooter68]

Those in the wine making world tend to be like chefs, A little prone to strong opinions and short of grace sometimes.

Not to further confuse but there are some who would say ignore the test numbers and go with what your tongue tells you. THAT however assumes you know what is producing a odd flavor or is missing in a wine flavor. Sometimes our tongues have to be educated first in order to guide us.

I am still looking for a video I saw a couple of years ago. A person was showing by demonstrating, some of the different characteristics of a wine by using actual examples of food. The foods had certain distinct characteristics found in wine. THAT's the best way - have someone show you the examples even if they are somewhat extreme, they help. Not everyone is born with the tasting skills of a Michelin critic.

 

[mainshipfred]

Those in the wine making world tend to be like chefs,

From what I see on the forum I'd like to add " a lot pf people in the wine making world are chefs" I quit opening the "What's for Dinner" thread it always makes me hungry and jealous.

 

[CUZN_J]

So last year a friend and I bought several juice buckets of red wine. He was 9ver and had a drink of mine and felt his wasn't as good what I found is he didnt adjust the pH which was very high when it came in.

His pH is 4.0 I've not tested the TA as of yet but I'd expect it to be low as well. This is finished from last season and bulk aged for 6 or 7 months now.

Is it too late to adjust the pH and help the wine before bottling or dump and call it a learning lesson?

so at what rate or dose should acid blend be added??? per gallon

 

[balatonwine]

Not that I know right or wrong or good or bad but that is the exact opposite of what I've been told by 3 different wine makers. I didn't ask the question, fortunately, but one of them got pretty offensive when the question came up.

Getting offensive says a lot to me. Not in a good way. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. But should be able to describe why they hold to that opinion without getting aggressive, if they actually know why they have that opinion and have good reason for having that opinion. All in my humble opinion of course.

Personally, I would test those wine maker's understanding of chemistry. Ask those wine makers to give a generic description for TA and pH (because there is a difference**). I wonder if they can. While the two are related, they are not perfectly correlated. Adjusting one affects the other, but not perfectly. In fact, it is possible (unusual but possible) to have both a high pH and a high TA. Adjusting to lower pH in that case, simply also raises TA. Adjusting pH is easier (just dump in a pH meter to check progress), so more often done. But being lazy is not always being right.

Also, TA includes many acids, such as tartaric, malic, citric and others. And that fact generally means TA will have a larger final impact on the taste of the final wine than pH alone. For example, many adjust TA using tartaric acid only, but an acid blend may be more appropriate in some cases.

By the way, this is not just me saying to adjust for TA, Jeff Cox in "From Vines to Wine" recommends it too (not saying that is the end of the discussion/opinion (I don't agree with everything he writes) -- just pointing out one published resource).

** one "simple" answer: pH is a logarithm scale of the H+ ions in a solution, while TA is acid content by weight.

 

[Stressbaby]

Agree with @balatonwine - what you taste is the TA, you need to know pH for the microbiology. If you are "go with what your tongue tells you" you will end up going by TA.

If it were me, I would measure the TA in the wine; calculate how much tartaric you need to get to 6 or 6.5g/L; do a bench trial with 1/2, 3/4, and the full amount and see what seems right.

 

[GEM]

Stress any is right on. tA is really hard to adjust much at this point. Rule of thumb is to be careful as it is to over adjust. Also, a high pH will make it difficult to protect your wine with sulfite, so I would recommend adjusting the pH down a bit to a point it tastes OK to you. Good luck.

 

[Masbustelo]

A question that I have is the following. It is said that Wines need to be 3.6 Ph or lower so that microorganisms cant grow in them. If the T.A. is above a certain point does this affect storage as well, or is it only Ph? For instance would a wine at Ph 3,8 but high T.A. be acceptable for storage purposes?

 

[GEM]

pH is what matters, not TA. Adjust the pH to between 3.4 and 3.6 if you can. Taste it and even if it is above 3.6 and it tastes OK to you leave it be. Can you test for sulfite level? If not, add a bit mor sulfite than usual to protect as high pH wine needs more sulfite to protect it from spoilage. Morewine.com has some good guidance on their site in their manuals section. Good luck.

 

[Cibb]

Thanks everyone for the help. I hope to have our first test by Wednesday when everything has arrived meaning the tartaric acid.

 

[mainshipfred]

Getting offensive says a lot to me. Not in a good way. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. But should be able to describe why they hold to that opinion without getting aggressive, if they actually know why they have that opinion and have good reason for having that opinion. All in my humble opinion of course.

Personally, I would test those wine maker's understanding of chemistry. Ask those wine makers to give a generic description for TA and pH (because there is a difference**). I wonder if they can. While the two are related, they are not perfectly correlated. Adjusting one affects the other, but not perfectly. In fact, it is possible (unusual but possible) to have both a high pH and a high TA. Adjusting to lower pH in that case, simply also raises TA. Adjusting pH is easier (just dump in a pH meter to check progress), so more often done. But being lazy is not always being right.

Also, TA includes many acids, such as tartaric, malic, citric and others. And that fact generally means TA will have a larger final impact on the taste of the final wine than pH alone. For example, many adjust TA using tartaric acid only, but an acid blend may be more appropriate in some cases.

By the way, this is not just me saying to adjust for TA, Jeff Cox in "From Vines to Wine" recommends it too (not saying that is the end of the discussion/opinion (I don't agree with everything he writes) -- just pointing out one published resource).

** one "simple" answer: pH is a logarithm scale of the H+ ions in a solution, while TA is acid content by weight.

Credentials of my 3 sources.

Chris Pearmund:
Chris is one of Virginia's most widely recognized and well respected winegrowers and winemakers. He has over 25 years experience as a winemaker, vineyard manager and winery operator. Chris is the "go-to" guy if you want to understand the wine industry from berry to bottle. He has taught and mentored numerous professionals in the industry. A few accomplishments of note:
-President of the Virginia Vineyards Association
-Chairman of the Virginia Wine and Food Society
-Board Member of the Virginia Wineries Association
-1st mobile wine bottler this side of the Rockies
-1st winery to use OXO barrel system - which is the gold standard for barrel rooms
-Innovator of the barrel ownership program
-Following Mary Ewing Mulligan (Wine for Dummies), Chris was the 2nd person to teach the Wine Spirit Education Trust (WSET) program in the country -- the standard of wine knowledge
-Initiated the first Virginia Vineyard insurance program and held the first policy

Ashton Lough:
Currently the Winemaker for The Winery at Bull I make approximately 15000 combined cases from myriad Vinifera and Hybrid varietals. I began my commerical career by being head winemaker for Pearmund Cellars, Vint Hill Craft Winery, Fleetwood Winery and Effingham Manor from July 2012 to June 2018.
I discovered wine and beer making while studying Biochemistry and Molecular Biology at University of Georgia, and as any true Biochemist would, I brought that discovery home to my kitchen. Along the way I developed a passion for making wine and realized that was my life's calling

Jason Burrus:
A native of St. Louis, Missouri, Jason found his way to California after graduating with a BS degree in Biology from the University of Missouri-Columbia. At 21 years old he decided to pursue a career in winemaking and enrolled in the Master's degree program for Viticulture & Enology at UC Davis. He would go on to complete his degree and land stints at Robert Mondavi Winery and Carmenet Winery in the Sonoma Mountains. From there he continued to gain experience in the Central Valley where he made some of the most famous wine brands in the country. He was also instrumental in the development of bag-in-box technology popular today.
Soon after Jason traveled to the tiny Mediterranean island of Malta for a short, three month harvest job at the island's largest winery. This would turn into a three year assignment in the position of Enologist. There he transformed the winery's laboratory to state-of-the-art and developed procedures to address viticulture issues unique to the region such as saline irrigation water and exceptionally calcareous soil. While there, Jason also consulted in the Eastern European nation of Moldova where his insights into production methods offered ways to shape wine styles towards those popular in Western Europe and North America.
In 2006 Jason decided to take a chance on the up and coming region of Virginia, where he has been since. He has worked in winemaking and vineyard management roles in some of the region's most regarded wineries. He lives in Northern Virginia with his wife and two boys. 2018 marks his 21st year in the wine industry.

 

[balatonwine]

Credentials of my 3 sources.

Quite frankly, I could not care less about credentials.

I have a BS and MS in Biology (with some awards and business successes). Have been vineyard farming for almost two decades. Should I care about their credentials? No. Should you care about mine? No.

Why? Because I know people with PhD's and lots of "experience" that still I think give lousy advise. And in things like wine making, things like location matter. Consulting to make eastern European wine more like western wine??? Wait. What? Ridiculous -- The trend today for high quality wine is toward local characteristics of the wine; not to dilute it to a western mass market friendly slop. Right there is an ideology to question. Basically, who cares what someone suggest for wine in Virginia, unless you are in Virginia, because the needs of the grape will mostly likely differ somewhere else.

I asked about some base lines. If they could describe basic chemistry to show they have at hand understanding and to acknowledge a baseline of knowledge of the basic issue on which to debate (and having a degree does not mean, automatically, they really understand that). Then, once that is established, from that basic baseline, which we can all agree upon,. to express their reasons for their opinions rationally as to what they said, what they think, and why. So we can debate it. The singular idea that "they have a degree and done this and that, so must be right" is bunk. Maybe during the debate I may agree with them. Or maybe not. I will keep an open mind there. But "credentials" alone don't cut it for me.

Side note: It was at UC Davis that the Brix to TA ratio of ripeness idea was developed. So someone going to school there, and apparently rejecting it by focusing on pH is.... interesting.....

As a final word -- these "experts" seem to me to be making large volumes of mass market wine. Which is fine. I actually like "Trader Joe's Two Buck Chuck". But if you want to create something more.... Something special.... Something amazing..... consider other sources of wine making opinion.

 

[Stressbaby]

Not that I know right or wrong or good or bad but that is the exact opposite of what I've been told by 3 different wine makers. I didn't ask the question, fortunately, but one of them got pretty offensive when the question came up.

Credentials aside, I'd like to know the exact context and question here. It may make all the difference.