Question about adjusting pH

[Johnd]

Such hostility...... makes me want to chime in. My opinion is that we need to pay attention to both, not operate in a vacuum clueless or ignorant about either pH or TA.

Prefermentation, when we should try to make our major adjustments to the must, we wouldn’t adjust the TA upward or downward to the detriment of making the pH too low to support good fermentation, nor so high as to jeopardize the microbial integrity of the must, balance is the key here. Do it well, and you make a wine with pH and TA generally within, or near the parameters we strive for.

Postfermentation, we still need to evaluate and understand both TA and pH together, for though their relationship isn’t linear, they do play off of one another. pH knowledge will help you evaluate the microbial stability, aging potential, etc. of our wine over the long haul, and TA, the taste perception of the acid in our wine. Taste at this stage of the game, and in my book, trumps most other considerations, as long as the pH is relatively in range.

For anyone to say “ignore one and focus on the other” at either stage seems overly simplistic. Personally, my red must adjustment efforts are: “Shoot for pH 3.5 while maintaining TA in the 6 - 7 range”, or “Shoot for TA of 6.5, while maintaining pH in the 3.4 - 3.6 range”. Doesn’t always work out that way, I’d rather end up on the low acid side because it’s so easy to raise later, as opposed to de-acidifying. With finished wine, acid adjustments are made to taste, though we should still endeavor to know what the numbers are. When the taste is optimized through bench trials, and the resultant pH is in range, a proper sulfite management protocol takes us the rest of the way home.

Just my two cents.........

 

[ibglowin]

I have preached for years here on WMT that you should pay attention to both but TA is really the bigger factor of the two measurements. Case in point my first year of harvesting cold hardy grapes in my back yard I only got enough to make a couple of gallons. I decided to play around with one of them and add tartaric (post AF) until I reached a perfect pH of 3.6. I then checked TA and it was ~1.2 IIRC. I then tasted the wine and it was completely undrinkable (too much acid) and extremely tart. Luckily I had another untouched gallon to blend it back with. That's a mistake you will only make once as a winemaker.

 

[mainshipfred]

I simply made a statement of others opinion that differed from a prior post and admittedly, at the time, had no opinion of my own. But now I am leaning towards one. There are different strokes for different folks and and in this instance I think they are near the same. Unless you have the ability to make an Apothic or some other engineered wine, taste is an art not science. Ph on the other hand is science since the goal is to stop something undesirable from happening through measure.

I would say most of us don't have the ability to test and/or harvest grapes when they are at their peak and have to rely on what we are dealt. Unless something is way out of wack I don't do pre fermentation adjustments as we don't have the ability to know how the chemicals are going to bind with one another plus there is more then just tartaric acid in grapes that add to the flavor profile.

My method for acid adjustment (again my method) post fermentation is:
Fill 3 glasses plus a base
Add differing amounts of tartaric acid in each and taste
If none are what I feel is right make additional adjustments
Once I find what I think is the best ratio I take a ph reading and do the calculations to add 1/2 to 3/4 that much to the bulk
This will adjust the TA not by measurement but by taste. You could on the other hand take a TA reading and adjust the TA accordingly but I always want to know the ph for the proper sulfite additions.

Now this is only adjustments with tartaric. Perhaps a wine might need a little more malic or citric to balance and off topic but it might need to be backsweetened to balance. So how important is TA really. If the wine has the right flavor profile and characteristics the TA is what it is. We now have to know the ph to add the proper sulfites.

 

[Scooter68]

Advice to all posters - Please put on your asbestos underwear before reading or writing here.


Seriously though. Interesting discussion. Rather than toss more gas on the fires (Potentially) I'd like to thank those making serious contributions. It's wandered a bit for the OP's question but interesting nonetheless.

 

[mainshipfred]

Sorry everyone. Mainshipfred out.

 

[Scooter68]

Sorry everyone. Mainshipfred out.

What's to be sorry about?. A few heated exchanges perhaps but, without people expressing different views, how do we learn things.

 

[Ajmassa]

Lots of great points within this discussion. Adjustments ‘to must’ may shift from TA to PH from winemaker to winemaker. This is understood.
I had a situation similar to @Cibb and @ibglowin’s wines mentioned. After AF&MLF. Adjusted From 4.0 to 3.6. TA actually landed in a good range too. But taste was way off. Way too much tartaric in spite of the numbers. I should have just focused on taste.
But really I should have adjusted before AF. At which point I’d focus on PH- but not sacrificing a good TA. It’s always a balancing act it seems. Luckily time has helped that wine and it’s much better now.

But here’s another question. Why do we say “adjusting ‘TA’ to taste”? Because if we are adding tartaric to taste, then pH and TA are interchangeable since they become a reference point for the desired taste. Could also use neither- just amount of tartaric needed. We aren’t actually adjusting TA or ph for taste. Those levels adjust as a byproduct of taste adjustments.

 

[Johnd]

You're correct, we adjust the wine with tartaric to taste, and TA is just a measure of the end result. Knowing what range tastes good and what doesn't, from your bench trial and tasting experience, helps you use those reference points to your advantage. It should keep you from making any overadjustments in both must and finished wine, while keeping your pH in a range that you can manage properly...............

 

[Cibb]

Our cheap titration ta kit gave us between 4-5 g/l our best guess is about 4.5.

We've performed half of what we feel the dosage should be and the taste has improved greatly.

How long would everyone advise waiting to test and taste before the next dose?

 

[Stressbaby]

Our cheap titration ta kit gave us between 4-5 g/l our best guess is about 4.5.

We've performed half of what we feel the dosage should be and the taste has improved greatly.

How long would everyone advise waiting to test and taste before the next dose?

When I do bench testing, I chill the wine; set up the 3-4 glasses at once; taste them, then walk away for few minutes and come back and taste again. I do this several times actually as the wine warms up. Sometimes the initial conclusion is not the final answer. This method mimics very closely how I drink the wine and I feel like my results are better that way.