Racking

[cuz]

When we rack how much should be left at bottom of carboy. I usually rack 3 gallon carboys. It makes a difference if I tilt the carboy when getting to the bottom. If I leave the racking cane in the center of the carboy without tilting, I top off almost 750ml. Is that too much? Maybe the first rack should be that much and then its OK to tilt as the racking goes on. Any Thoughts?

 

[Scooter68]

The volume left behind isn't the issue. What matters is the clarity of what is left. If it's been disturbed and looks cloudy, leaving it behind is best. It's hard to do but if you move that carboy into a tilted position safely a day or so before you rack that might help. Most of my batches have a little blt of fine sediment at almost every racking. Topping off is something you have to decide on how you want to deal with. Some folks use a cheap wine of similar variety.

I use filtered water but then I prefer to figure in the losses of volume into my calculations of lbs per gallon and the ABV changes that will occur as I have to top off. So I make my batches slightly oversize. With some I have gone almost a gallon larger in volume because I know I'll have over 1./2 gallon of lees.

I also have several half-gallon carboys and other airlock-able smaller glass containers (16 & 20 oz) that can be used after the fermentation is done. The extra goes into those. At the next racking I can use those for topping off. When it's airlocked just like the bigger carboy it's going work the same as the bigger carboy. Sometimes ( after I know the lees with yeast are gone ) I take that last amount on the bottom of the carboy and put it into a smaller glass jar, cap it and cold crash it. That usually settles out a lot of the finer stuff quickly. Then use that for my taste testing knowing that if may have some difference in flavor if there were any lees at the bottom of the carboy. You can try filtering etc but the left over, when the rack is done should be treated with suspect unless you can completely clarify it and be sure there is no off taste to it.

The further down the road you get beyond fermentation, the less you are going to lose in volume. This is one of those judgement calls. Is 2 inches of air in the neck of the carboy too much, How about 1 inch? Look at a bottle of wine - How much volume of air is there at the top. As long as you aren't exceed that amount in the carboy you should be fine. Remember that 3 gallon carboy represents 15 bottles fo wine - what's the volume of air the top of 15 bottles and just try to keep it topped off to equal or less than that total volume.

 

[Donatelo]

Just as Scooter68 said, I always tilt the primary a day or so before I plan to rack the wine into a carboy. To cold crash what is left in the refrigerator seems like a reasonable thing to me. The gross lees will settle out some and you can syphon the top off of that. The point is don't disturb the gross lees.

 

[Scooter68]

Racking for the gross lees removal (First racking after fermentation ends) is the most critical one. Err on the side of protecting the majority of the wine. (Toss out anything in question.) That's one reason I try to start high in volume so I can leave anything questionable behind. Any volume beyond the initial carboy(s) filled I would at least do a course filtering on immediately, cold crash it and filter again as soon as possible - to get it away from any yeast residue. Yeast residue is probably the worst thing to cause you problems.

After a few batches you will figure out what's worth doing and what's a waste of time and effort. Again since I now try to start well above my target volume (Normally I start with at least 3 1/2 to 3 3/4 gallons for 3 gallon batches nowadays) I aim to have at least a quart of salvageable volume for the next topping off. (2nd Racking after fermentation ends)

I know this may be minoring in the details - but it works for me. A lot of course depends on your source of the juice - Real fruit like cut up peaches and apples will have a lot more lees even at that 2nd racking. When you are using concentrates like say a Vintners Harvest where their is no pulp, then there's a lot less lost once the gross lees with yeast are gone.

Those who are in "Need" of a 'drinkable' wine ASAP, can try that left-over volume of must but I have to say, it's pretty rough and sharp.

 

[cuz]

Hey Scooter, If you are going to oversize a 3 gallon carboy - do you have a 4 gallon carboy? Also you started to talk about how much space to leave for the air lock. I typically fill the wine to the top not leaving any air space. I thought that was the idea - no oxygen, no air space

 

[Scooter68]

Don't know of any 4 gallon carboys. 1, 3, 5, 6 or 6.5 is all I've heard of. As to airspace. I always leave at least 3/4" that's not enough oxygen to cause a problem. With no airspace any foaming or gassing off can give you an overflow and then suck back in air after it stops. (Normally that's only going to happen after additions of chemicals but air-pressure can do it too.

I especially keep an eye on things for the first couple of days after racking. Murphy's law bites when you least expect it.

As to over-sizing I am talking about in the primary bucket. When I rack down for secondary fermentation that's when I go into the carboy.

 

[Ajmassa]

Hey Scooter, If you are going to oversize a 3 gallon carboy - do you have a 4 gallon carboy? Also you started to talk about how much space to leave for the air lock. I typically fill the wine to the top not leaving any air space. I thought that was the idea - no oxygen, no air space

Over sizing and then using a 4gal defeats the purpose and would just require more oversizing. The purpose is to have some smaller jugs on the ready when volume is lost during racking to keep topped.

I do this as well scooter. And put the overage in jars in fridge to separate and siphon off. But that whole filtering/cold crash/filtering sounds extremely unnecessary. An extra day on the lees with a small quantity separating isn’t something I ever worried about. In your line of thought, wouldn’t an extended maceration jeopardize the whole batch?

I’m talking grapes. Or is this thought specific to fruit wine as you noted in the examples?

 

[Scooter68]

Yes, I am speaking about fruit wines other than grape. The key is to get the wine away from any lees especially the dead yeast, but any lees left after fermentation ends. If the fruit has been prepared properly before fermenting, there is little to gain after fermentation ends. One thing to remember is that there are very few absolute rules in wine making. Many folks use different methods that others may find odd or counter productive. In the end if it works and doesn't ruin the wine, it's hard to dispute every variance in the process. Some methods are perhaps higher risk for off flavors or spoilage etc but as long as you use care and are aware of those risks, it's a choice you make.

As to the amount of air - again I've never heard anyone state that eliminating 100% of the air from the carboy was a desirable. I have heard a lot of people talk about fountains and overflows from unexpected fermentation restarts or dramatic rise in activity right after racking to a carboy for the final days of fermentation. Once you are certain there is no likelihood of that happening then the risks go lower. Still remember that as water with alcohol heats up it's going to expand and some gases are released with no airspace for that water to move into or for the gases to rise into, something is going to give.

 

[balatonwine]

Yes, I am speaking about fruit wines other than grape. The key is to get the wine away from any lees especially the dead yeast, but any lees left after fermentation ends.

That is, the gross lees.

If the fruit has been prepared properly before fermenting, there is little to gain after fermentation ends. One thing to remember is that there are very few absolute rules in wine making. Many folks use different methods that others may find odd or counter productive.

Such as letting the wine sit on the fine lees to allow autolysis, or not.

In the end, wine making is an art. What type of wine do *you* want to make. That is all that matters.

 

[Stressbaby]

I may be reiterating what Scooter and Massa have said above but here is my 2 cents on your question...

When racking, I try to tilt but only immediately before racking. I aim for 3.5 or minimum 3.25 gallons on a 3 gallon batch so I have some left over for topping up. Typically I move those over to 1/2 gallon carboys or 750ml bottles. Then after the first racking (off the gross lees, generally 3-7 days after moving from primary to carboy) I don't top up immediately...I pour the lees into a mason jar and stick that in the fridge and then the following day I draw off as much clear wine from the jar as possible and top up with that. Then I will use a similar wine if needed to finish topping up. Second and subsequent rackings typically require no more than 60ml.

If you are using an All in One wine pump, it will take a little practice not to stir up the lees at the end.

If you are making fruit wine, the "high lees" fruit like persimmons and peaches will show an inverse relationship between final wine volume and fruit #/gallon. That is to say, increasing the fruit will increase your losses in terms of gross lees and reduce the wine volume after that first racking. 750ml may be expected, it just depends on the fruit and the recipe used.

 

[Scooter68]

On the up side - when you pull a bag of peach skins and pulp from your primary container, that residue makes a wicked ice cream topping. A little yeasty taste but after several spoons full you'll never notice.

 

[cuz]

All the replies are insightful. I was topping off with a Carl Rossi (figured I give you guys a laugh) and was concerned that when I was done the wine was compromised so much it wasn't my wine at all. I only make wine from 6 gallon grape juice pails. In order to stretch it out I would have to dilute it with water. Maybe I'll try two pails of the same juice and try saving 3 gallons into single gallon jugs to use to topping off. just tried tilting on my carmenere and chateau du pape - much less left at bottom, Petite Syrah is tilted and waiting.

 

[Ajmassa]

Oh. Didn’t realize that. 6 gal buckets makes oversizing much less ideal. With fruit, like scooter was sayin, it’s much easier since the wine he’s making is a recipe with x amount of fruit and x amount of water- giving the ability to decide how much your making.
With grapes you can buy enough to account for it. And it just so happens that 3 lugs will fill a 6 gal carboy plus another gal or so. But juice pails are already a set volume. And your right, i wouldn’t want to be adding a gal to my primary like that either.
My pails come in 5.3 gal. Sometimes just enough to get through the 1st month to keep a 5 gal carboy topped up. With a 6 gal you could add a lug of grapes. Would get another couple gal and a better finished product.
But with no grapes you could always just use a 5 gal carboy and that Carlo Rossi jug. Would work out perfect.

 

[Ajmassa]

—your post reminded me to tilt my demi I need to rack into carboys soon. Much easier to leave lees undisturbed, but I usually forget to do it (which often leads to mason jars separating in the fridge lol- and also what stressbaby said—not stirring up lees at the end of a rack with the AIO is an art
Also, FWIW, my last topping was done to carboys at cold crash temps. Went too high and had wine come up through the vented bungs for a big mess after the wine came back up in temp.

 

[Scooter68]

—... Also, FWIW, my last topping was done to carboys at cold crash temps. Went too high and had wine come up through the vented bungs for a big mess after the wine came back up in temp.

And THAT is why I leave about 3/4" to 1" airspace in any size carboy. Pressure and temp changes can result in some messy spills and potentially compromise the airlock function. Especially true when racking into a carboy from a fermentation bucket. Sometimes the fermentation appears to stop (Pausing or slowing in reality) AND other times the racking 'excites' the process and you get all kinds of foaming from a fermentation that seemed quiet and almost done. Since I've been using the same yeast for the last 8-10 batches, I know it's more dependent on the conditions than the yeast.
That's why I now wait until the SG no higher than 1.010 before racking from fermentation bucket into a carboy(s).