Racking

[JPVagabond]

Hello

I'm making wine from store bought juice and sugar. Because I'm a classy guy.

I plan to rack once in the next day or two. Then ferment for the next two to three weeks.

I'm then going to pop some oak chips in for a while. Do I need to rack again at this point? (And do I need a campden tablet at this point? As I used store bought juice I didn't use one at the beginning.)

That leads on to a side question... In what order and when would you put in stabiliser, finings and campden tablets in relation to he secondary fermentation and oak aging.

Is it even necessary to rack now, it's store bought juice am I over thinking?

Just after some opinions as resources vary. Thanks

 

[salcoco]

first verify fermentation is complete with a hydrometer before racking sg should equal 1.00 or less
once complete rack into a carboy wait three days rack again. add campden tablets and oak. sorbate not required yet.
do bench trial taste test on wine during oak phase to reach desired level of oak. rack off of oak add campden tablet.
if wine is to be sweetened add sorbate and campden tablet once clear bottle.

 

[JPVagabond]

first verify fermentation is complete with a hydrometer before racking sg should equal 1.00 or less
once complete rack into a carboy wait three days rack again. add campden tablets and oak. sorbate not required yet.
do bench trial taste test on wine during oak phase to reach desired level of oak. rack off of oak add campden tablet.
if wine is to be sweetened add sorbate and campden tablet once clear bottle.

To confirm. You're saying rack at the end of secondary fermentation but not after primary?

 

[salcoco]

no there is only one fermentation it is in the primary. once sg is as stated rack . then after three days rack again, this take the wine off of any sediment. then add k-meta.

 

[sour_grapes]

So what we are saying is:

-Start your fermentation in a bucket (as you likely did)
-Go by your hydrometer for timing the next step. When it is ~1.010 or less, rack it to a glass carboy. (Opinions differ on the SG. Sal expressed his preference to wait until 1.000 or less. I am giving the maximum SG that I would recommend racking from bucket to glass. I personally do it at ~1.005 or so, but no biggie.)
-Rack again once fermentation is essentially complete to get it off the remaining sediment.
-Top up the vessel, add k-meta, and let it age.

 

[JPVagabond]

This is interesting. Every resource I have read says to rack after primary fermentation. It's one of the few things most resources agree on. But you guys say to continue un racked until all fermentation is complete.

I'm not disputing. I'm grateful for your advice. But so you know why the differing process? Because I'm using juice not actual fruit?

 

[sour_grapes]

I think what is confusing is the terminology, which Sal alluded to. It is not likely that we differ from your sources.

The conversion of sugar to alcohol ("alcoholic fermentation") is what is properly called "primary fermentation." That is not finished until the SG is 0.99x, so, no, neither Sal nor I advised that you wait until "all fermentation is complete." We both said to rack from a bucket to glass before that time.

What is properly called "secondary fermentation" is malolactic fermentation, where bacteria are used to convert malic acid to lactic acid. This is optional and does not benefit all wines, and is not a good idea for kits.

Room for confusion arises when people use a sloppy shorthand to refer to the fermentation vessels. One might call the plastic bucket the primary fermentation vessel, and the carboy the secondary fermentation vessel. Note that the adjective is referring to the vessel, not modifying "fermentation." However, people routinely and sloppily refer to a bucket as "primary" and a carboy as "secondary," but this refers to the vessel.

Note that the step-by-step instructions I gave above do not use the terms primary or secondary, so as to avoid any such confusion.

 

[CDrew]

I think you have your terms confused. I think of it this way:

Primary Fermentation-All the grape sugars are fermented to alcohol and CO2
Secondary Fermentation-All the Malic acid is turned into Lactic Acid by Malolactic Bacteria

Your whole fermentation IS the primary and only fermentation. Rack the first time when it is over or close to over. It's over when your SG is 0.996 or so. I try and press just ahead of that at Brix of 0.0 (sg 1.004) so the tiny amount of fermentation that still needs to occur happens in the carboy. After the initial rack, wait 2-3 days and rack again to pull the new wine off the initial sediment sediment which in your case will be mostly spent yeast. It may STILL be fermenting a tiny bit. After your fermentation is done, and you've racked at least once, it time to add your potassium metabisulfite.

There is no SECONDARY fermentation. You have a second container, but there is no secondary fermentation, just a continuance of primary fermentation. Sometimes you do a secondary fermentation with Malolactic Bacteria, but with a juice and sugar fermentation, you will not need to do that. It sounds like you're making prison "wine" or Pruno.

Read what @sour_grapes wrote. That's it, there is no fermentation after the first one. THere is racking to new airtight containers, but it is still just a continuance of the initial fermentation.

 

[cmason1957]

The confusion with the terms comes from the kit manufacturers. They use the term secondary fermentation to indicate the wine has been racked from the primary fermentation bucket, into a glass vessel. As Paul (@sour_grapes ) points out there is one alcoholic fermentation, regardless of what type of vessel you are carrying it out in. and yes, you rack after that is completed, you might also have racked at about 1.010 or lower into the glass vessel.

It really is a po-ta-toes, po-ta-to argument. But, if you go to a commercial winemaker and talk about secondary fermentation, they will think you mean doing malolactic fermentation.

 

[JPVagabond]

I'm with you. I am with you.
One fermentation, two vessels.
I'll re read my resources to be sure but I think you're right about where the confusion has arisen. They're referring to racking off gross lees into a secondary vessel.
And I don't need to rack so early as I have no gross lees. So I can just chill out now until fermentation (my one and only) is done, or nearly done, to rack off most of the sediment.

Thanks chaps.


Sorry to be a pain though...
Quick follow on.
1. Do I not need to rack off the fine lees after 7 days so? There's a plentiful layer down there. Will this be fine for 21 days or so? Just checking.

2. My bulk aging vessel is my secondary fermenting vessel or at least it can be as I don't have a barrel. How bad would it be if I just popped some oak in there rather than rack again? Asking for a friend.

 

[JPVagabond]

Edit.

I've just checked one of the resources. It definitely refers to the continued fermentation in the secondary vessel after racking off gross lees as a 'secondary fermentation'. No wonder I was confused. But I now know better.

 

[cmason1957]

Sorry to be a pain though...
Quick follow on.
1. Do I not need to rack off the fine lees after 7 days so? There's a plentiful layer down there. Will this be fine for 21 days or so? Just checking.

2. My bulk aging vessel is my secondary fermenting vessel or at least it can be as I don't have a barrel. How bad would it be if I just popped some oak in there rather than rack again? Asking for a friend.

Here is my racking schedule (more or less):
first racking at 1.010 or lower
second racking about 3 days after fermention completes - same reading 3 days in a row.
Add Kmeta at this time (1/4 tsp / 6 gallon) or 1 campden tablet / gallon, also add oak, etc.
Next racking at about 3 weeks
Any additional rackings every 3 months or so, add kmeta at each. (repeat as you wish to)
two weeks prior to ready to bottle decide if clearing agents will be used, add, wait.
backsweeten, adding kmeta and potassium sorbate if going to backsweeten.
Filter, if desired.
Bottle

 

[JPVagabond]

adding kmeta and potassium sorbate if going to backsweeten.

Thank you. That's awesome. This stuff had better turn out like papasmurf-du-pape after all this.

Just want to check. You say add kmeta and sorbate of backsweetening. Would I be adding kmeta at this point regardless and sorbate only if backsweetening or is it an all or nothing situation?

Thanks again

 

[cmason1957]

Kmeta regardless and the potassium sorbate only required if backsweeting or your final sg is above about 0.996. Papasmurf-du-pape, wonderful name for your first wine.

 

[JPVagabond]

Thanks.

Last question.

I also read that racking with an sg of 1.010 or lower could result in a stuck fermentation.

Any truth in this?

 

[cmason1957]

It probably depends. Many folks on that first track try to make sure not to get any lees. I feel that is a mistake, I don't worry and try to get every last bit I can get. I want those yeast at that point, so I rack dirty. I have had one stuck ferment in about 9 years. And that was a high alcohol must. It's what I do.

 

[user 32114]

It probably depends. Many folks on that first track try to make sure not to get any lees. I feel that is a mistake, I don't worry and try to get every last bit I can get. I want those yeast at that point, so I rack dirty. I have had one stuck ferment in about 9 years. And that was a high alcohol must. It's what I do.

so your saying that after drinking your wine you end up with no balance,,, lol
all joking aside i like my wines stiffer than most do, and i like the taste,,
Dawg

 

[Rice_Guy]

There is little chance that the racking would cause a fermentation to stick, other issues as pH or lack of nutrients, or high alcohol are normal causes.

Last question.. I also read that racking with an sg of 1.010 or lower could result in a stuck fermentation.

FYI, ,,, I like to rack at 1.010 to 1.020. Craig likes to carry over some yeast. ,,, We each vary technique and it works.