Raspberry wine question

[Deezil]

1. You may want to add pectic enzyme and bentonite both, to the batch but I would do it after the f-pack is in the wine, and dose it for the whole batch.

3. You'll want to K-Meta + Sorbate the batch prior to adding the f-pack

4. Sweetening options are pretty open, just depending on what you want to do to the flavor

 

[acorn]

1. You may want to add pectic enzyme and bentonite both, to the batch but I would do it after the f-pack is in the wine, and dose it for the whole batch.

3. You'll want to K-Meta + Sorbate the batch prior to adding the f-pack

4. Sweetening options are pretty open, just depending on what you want to do to the flavor

Thanks for the tip, but I am not using a kit. The wine is "ready", awaiting back sweetening in a carboy. Sorry for the confusion.

What I am asking is ONLY about the fresh squeezed juice that I am going to use as a medium for dissolving a sweetening agent, instead of water. Hence, I am worried whether I need to add pectic enzyme to this fresh juice, so that upon adding it to the wine it doesn't produce some sort of haze. What about using fining agents in the fresh squeezed juice to clarify it before sweetening it and adding to the batch of wine?

Also, do I need to add sorbate and K-meta to the syrupy fresh juice before adding it to the rest of the wine, thus backsweetening it?

 

[Deezil]

I dont make kits personally, so I'm sorry if you got that impression. I was referring to the 'batch' as the ready wine, and the f-pack as the fruit;

I know you're asking about the fresh juice, but in order to treat the fresh juice separate from the wine, you would have to k-meta it to keep it from spoiling, then add pectic enzyme ~12 hours later, let it sit for a few days, then rack off the sediment and add what's left to the wine.

It's easier to K-Meta+Sorbate the batch / ready wine, then add the f-pack, and treat the whole batch for hazing issues - both with pectic enzyme for pectin haze, and bentonite for protein hazes.

What you're asking is possible, it's just riskier. You run the risk of losing the f-pack juice, of it spoiling on you; it's safer in the alcohol laden environment where there's less things that can ruin your hard work. You can address the hazes either way.

Always add the sorbate to the wine, not the f-pack. You want it to find the yeast in the wine before the sugar does. I usually wait a week between adding the Sorbate and any sweetening I do; others dont wait as long. But I've got the time..

 

[acorn]

I dont make kits personally, so I'm sorry if you got that impression. I was referring to the 'batch' as the ready wine, and the f-pack as the fruit;

I know you're asking about the fresh juice, but in order to treat the fresh juice separate from the wine, you would have to k-meta it to keep it from spoiling, then add pectic enzyme ~12 hours later, let it sit for a few days, then rack off the sediment and add what's left to the wine.

It's easier to K-Meta+Sorbate the batch / ready wine, then add the f-pack, and treat the whole batch for hazing issues - both with pectic enzyme for pectin haze, and bentonite for protein hazes.

What you're asking is possible, it's just riskier. You run the risk of losing the f-pack juice, of it spoiling on you; it's safer in the alcohol laden environment where there's less things that can ruin your hard work. You can address the hazes either way.

Always add the sorbate to the wine, not the f-pack. You want it to find the yeast in the wine before the sugar does. I usually wait a week between adding the Sorbate and any sweetening I do; others dont wait as long. But I've got the time..

Great! Thank you very much! It is very helpful. I will give it a try all the same. In fact, to delay any possible spoilage, I am going to pasteurize the juice in hot water bath, add pectic enzyme and then put it into the refrigerator for a few days. I used Sparkolloid on the wine batch, and it worked perfectly. I will try the same with f-pack.

 

[WVMountaineerJack]

Hold on a minute. If your concern is to much acidity now you are going to add more with your homemade Fpac. You also have a concern about bitterness and you are about to add more of the same. You have never said if this is red raspberry or black raspberry. Both of these can be used at 3-6 pounds/gallon easily, that might seem like a lot to the "bloody pee" crowd but this is very typical range. Balancing your tartness from the acid, which is mainly citric acid, cant be done by chilling it, that is only with tartaric acid, simply backsweetening it with sugar or honey until you like it and then dosing with fresh sorbate will balance that part easily. I am more wondering where your bitterness comes from, how did the raw berries taste? Have you added anything else not mentioned in your first post? Sometimes the seeds can be left to long in the primary and they can add a bitterness that might age out, there are some fining agents that are supposed to target bitter tannins that may or may not help (havent used them). WVMJ

 

[acorn]

Hold on a minute. If your concern is to much acidity now you are going to add more with your homemade Fpac. You also have a concern about bitterness and you are about to add more of the same. You have never said if this is red raspberry or black raspberry. Both of these can be used at 3-6 pounds/gallon easily, that might seem like a lot to the "bloody pee" crowd but this is very typical range. Balancing your tartness from the acid, which is mainly citric acid, cant be done by chilling it, that is only with tartaric acid, simply backsweetening it with sugar or honey until you like it and then dosing with fresh sorbate will balance that part easily. I am more wondering where your bitterness comes from, how did the raw berries taste? Have you added anything else not mentioned in your first post? Sometimes the seeds can be left to long in the primary and they can add a bitterness that might age out, there are some fining agents that are supposed to target bitter tannins that may or may not help (havent used them). WVMJ

Yes, good observation. It is red raspberry wine. I am not sure why I didn't mention it, but I started off following a recipe that recommended adding 1/2 tsp acid blend per gallon among other things, as I did, using a triple acid blend. As I discovered post-fermentation, this was redundant, especially with the presence of malic acid in the blend that only became more pronounced in the dry wine.

During the last racking I tried 2 samples - one of wine as it is (kind of wacky, as I described), and another with a dash of sugar. The second sample demonstrated noticeable improvement through sweetening.

I decided to use the fresh juice to boost the flavor, and, if anything, it is less acidic than the wine because I won't be adding any acid or blend to the f-pack. I don't doubt that this definitely won't hurt the flavor of the wine. I was only hesitant about adding the f-pack in terms of potential side effects, such as heavy haze or spoilage prior to it being added to the batch of wine. That cleared, I am quite confident that it will turn out to be a decent wine (it just doesn't work if left dry, as it is).

Thanks, everyone, for your valuable input! I will post an update to let you know how it fares in the end.

 

[photoactivist]

So, I see you said you did not submit your wine to mlf; have you considered it? MLF softens the acidity mouthfeel, and may be what you want to do.
Also, I read you macerated your fruit during primary fermentation. With fruit wine, maceration isn't always best. I believe small berry clusters, such as raspberries, are ones you probably should have left whole to avoid steeping out the astringency and bitterness.
As for back sweetening, if you're making liquid from your own raspberries, you may wish to fine it with bentonite. That will help clear solid particles. Do a bit more research, because you definitely don't want to get more bitterness or acidity introduced into it.


Sent from my iPhone using Wine Making

 

[cintipam]

Raspberry is citric acid. I just went to Jack Kellers page to check. Pretty sure I remember reading that you never want to do mlf on citric acid, only malic. I've never done MLF, so please somebody with more experience chime in here. MLF does bad thing to citric acid if I'm remembering correctly.

Pam in cinti

 

[cintipam]

Finally found my source. I had this in my notes saved from WMT.


*NOTE: Do not use citric acid or acid blend if you are planning a malolactic fermentation. Malolactic must be inhibited as it converts citric acid, if available, into acetic acid during this fermentation.

Pretty sure that's why they say to only do MLF on apple or pear fruit wines.

Pam in cinti

 

[acorn]

Finally found my source. I had this in my notes saved from WMT.


*NOTE: Do not use citric acid or acid blend if you are planning a malolactic fermentation. Malolactic must be inhibited as it converts citric acid, if available, into acetic acid during this fermentation.

Pretty sure that's why they say to only do MLF on apple or pear fruit wines.

Pam in cinti

Thanks a lot for your input, it is reassuring! I should have posted the update by now, as I backsweetened yesterday, just didn't have time to report it here. Yes, I specifically avoided MLF because raspberry is full of citric acid that is bound to convert to vinegar during MLF. Besides, since I am backsweetening I have to use sorbate, and I have to be mindful of the MLB and sorbate clash that produces geranium odor/flavor. One more thing that I realized: in the beginning I used acid blend (yes, rookie mistake), that contains malic acid that probably gives off some of that bitterness and wouldn't have metabolized even if I wanted for the wine to go through MLF.

Anyway, here is what I actually did to prepare the f-pack.
1) Thawed a bag full of frozen raspberries (my bad, I should have recorded the weight) and squeezed it through a coarse nylon bag.
2) I repeated the procedure with a finer nylon bag.
3) Added a dash of K-meta and a dose of pectic enzyme
4) Let it sit in a magnum bottle (total volume of juice with pulp was about 1 L) in the refrigerator for about a week.
5) Siphoned off the sediment and filtered it using paper filters for a coffee maker to get more clear juice.
6) Dissolved some Sparkolloid and added to the juice. Added another dash of K-meta, transferred the juice to the 750 ml bottle (full) and left in the refrigerator for 3 more days.
7) In the meantime, I added sorbate and 1 campden tablet to the 3 gallon batch of wine to prepare it for backsweetening.
8) After 3 days, I siphoned the crystal clear juice of the fine sediment and dissolved about 4.9-5.0 oz of sugar in it, thereafter adding it to the wine.

Results:

Resultant S.G. = 0.997 (up 0.007 from the original of 0.990)
Residual sugar concentration (artificially added) = 1.2% (about 11 g/L)
pH = 3.2
TA = 8 g/L
Alc./vol. = 13.5 %
Taste: sweetness and freshness of the f-pack juice evened out the biting acidic taste considerably, as well as suppressed some of that volatile acidity with fresh raspberry aroma.

All in all, I must say, though it started rough, the end result is rather pleasant. I think I am going to let the wine further sit in the carboy for now and then will bottle it in about 2 months.

I'll report the final product (with pictures) here some time in January. Thanks a lot to everyone who contributed and shared their valuable experience.

 

[Northerngal]

I am new to winemaking as well, and this has been a great thread to read. I'm excited to see your results!

Jenn

 

[sour_grapes]

I am new to winemaking as well, and this has been a great thread to read. I'm excited to see your results!

Jenn

Welcome, Jenn! There is a subforum called "Introductions" (http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/f21/) where you could introduce yourself!

 

[Boyd]

If you have a problem with tannins in your wine you might try egg whites to remove some of it.

One egg with the whites separated, a pinch of salt to dissolve the egg white and about a 1/4 cup of water. Stir gently to avoid foaming. Takes quite a lot of stirring aver a period of time.

Works well with elderberry wine which sometimes produce a lot of tannins.

 

[acorn]

Wine bottled. Thank you all who made this process easier for me.