Cellar Craft Ready to start this Malbec, question about D254 yeast

[sour_grapes]

How about the smell, kids say it smells like fart in the basement....the odor is medium to maybe high...

What is your SG now? Have you added yeast nutrient?

 

[Pumpkinman]

You need to add yeast nutrient, don't go over board, add 1/2 or 1/3 the recommended amount, add the rest in 2 or three days depending on the SG reading.
I agree with Jim, you need a proper sized fermenting bucket.

 

[geek]

I always use that 6gal bucket with no problem so far, I know is a
bit high but it is due to the skins bag, so far so splash or disasters.

I just checked the temp in the must with my PH55 and is ~79.9F and the pellet stove has not run all night and the basement temp is now ~63.
So I wonder if the high temp was rushing the yeast a bit.

I don't have goferm but the typical "Yeast Nutrient" and I understand that should not be used as it may contain DAP.

Is the odor due to the yeast needing a nutrient as goferm or Fermaid K and Fermaid O?
NOTE: it seems like the odor has subsided, it is NOT as prominent as last night (much less and not bad) which looks like a good sign?
Again, the temp in the must is ~79F, brew belt on, and the basement temp ~63F.

The SG has dropped to ~1.030 from ~1.08x last Saturday.
Is that drop within range? I pitched yeast Saturday morning.

Thanks for all good feedback. Keep them coming...

..

 

[sour_grapes]

I don't have goferm but the typical "Yeast Nutrient" and I understand that should not be used as it may contain DAP.

Is the odor due to the yeast needing a nutrient as goferm or Fermaid K and Fermaid O?

I think, as Tom indicated, best practices would have called for adding the nutrient, even if it was your generic, DAP-containing nutrient. Fermaid K contains DAP, by the way. I am not an expert enough to say whether adding it now would be a good thing (to feed the yeast for the rest of the fermentation) or a bad thing (to feed spoilage organisms).

Seems like a pretty fast ferment! If I understood your timing correctly, you went to 1.030 in about 48 hours. For a recent batch of Syrah I did at about 73F with D254, the SG was down from 1.100 to:
48 hours -- 1.082
60 hours -- 1.060
72 hours -- 1.046
84 hours -- 1.034
96 hours -- 1.026

Yes, it seems to me that the H2S subsiding is a good thing. My notes say that I had a slight whiff of H2S at 48 hours (SG=1.082), at which time I added about 40% of my yeast nutrient. (I added the other 60% the next morning at SG=1.060.) I did not smell any more H2S the rest of the ferment.

 

[geek]

What I don't understand why would this be H2S if the fermentation seems to be going at full speed, even the room temp right now is cool at ~63F the fermentation is going strong.

 

[Pumpkinman]

Varis,
It sounds like the yeast was stressed most likely due to the high temps pushing it along which resulted in the yeast needing more nutrients, possibly stressed, hence, the smell, as the fermentation slowed, possibly due to lack of nutrients or it may have reached it's temp or abv threshold, either way, I would have added Fermaid K as soon as I smelled it, I would have punched down the cap, the grape pack in this case, making sure that the yeast had enough oxygen to continue working and Fermaid to make sure that it was fed and happy.
As fermentation slowed down, so did the production of H2S.
or...some fermentations produce funky smells, as soon as I smell the tell tale sulfur/rotten egg smell, I add Fermaid.

 

[sour_grapes]

I don't think that is necessarily true that poor nutrition will result in a slow ferment, which is how I am interpreting your comment.

Here is a quote from the abstract of an interesting scholarly article on H2S production. (Your question made me google around for information on H2S production factors.)

The greatest amount of H2S was produced when nitrogen became depleted during the exponential phase of growth

The way I am reading this article, when the yeast are growing, they are necessarily making amino acids that have S in them; a step in this process is H2S production, which is then normally consumed to make these amino acids. If there is insufficient N to make some of these amino acids, this H2S is liberated instead of being consumed. However, nothing says that this lack of N will necessarily slow down the fermentation by existing yeast.


I also found an easier to approach article from the San Diego Amateur Winemaking Society . Although it does not reference the point about the vigor of the fermentation, it has some pretty good reading in it.

the problem occurs because the yeast runs short of some needed material. Hydrogen sulfide can be produced when yeast lacks micro-nutrients or vitamins including pantothenic acid. A common cause of stinking fermentations is a lack of nitrogen, and mild cases of H2S can often be cured by adding a small quantity of DAP to the fermentation. Many winemakers add extra nitrogen, micro-nutrients and pantothenic acid to their fermentations specifically to avoid the production of hydrogen sulfide gas. Diammonium phosphate is often used as a source of nitrogen, and proprietary yeast foods such as Super Food (from the Wine Lab) can be added to provide micro-nutrients. Pantothenic acid is one of the B-vitamins, and it can be obtained at any drug store.

 

[Pumpkinman]

Paul,
Not to be a pain, but a little test:
take 2 cups, add 1/2 cup of water to each cup heat the water to 110° and add a packet of yeast to each, lets use EC-1118, after approx 10 mins the yeast should be hydrated and starting to reproduce, wait 5 mins and take a 1/2 cup of must that has been slightly warmed to 90°, add it to one of the cups slowly. Within 5-10 mins you will see that the cup that you added the must to is now foaming up like a cappuccino, why? because we added nutrients in the form of the must.
The same thing happens during fermentation, as long as the conditions are favorable, the yeast will continue to do their job, once the conditions such as nutrients are depleted it will in fact slow down.
I could be wrong.

 

[sour_grapes]

Paul,
Not to be a pain, but a little test:
take 2 cups, add 1/2 cup of water to each cup heat the water to 110° and add a packet of yeast to each, lets use EC-1118, after approx 10 mins the yeast should be hydrated and starting to reproduce, wait 5 mins and take a 1/2 cup of must that has been slightly warmed to 90°, add it to one of the cups slowly. Within 5-10 mins you will see that the cup that you added the must to is now foaming up like a cappuccino, why? because we added nutrients in the form of the must.
The same thing happens during fermentation, as long as the conditions are favorable, the yeast will continue to do their job, once the conditions such as nutrients are depleted it will in fact slow down.
I could be wrong.

Tom,

You seem to be switching your definition of "nutrients" from post to post. In your latest example, clearly the nutrients the must supplied that resulted in the activity are the sugars. In most cases, when we have been referring to "yeast nutrients," we have been using that term to mean micro-nutrients.

Of course, I was not trying to state that yeast will live and ferment fine in the absence of sugar. Rather, I was trying to say that it is possible that in the presence of sugar, but with a deficit of YAN, the yeast will still ferment the sugars; they may just fart a lot.

To put this in somewhat anthropomorphic terms, consider what happens if you feed sailors only white rice. They still have sufficient calories to live, so they continue their sailing jobs, that is, they still display activity. However, they wind up developing beriberi from the lack of micronutrients, which eventually will negatively affect their function.

 

[Pumpkinman]

Paul,
You are correct.

 

[sour_grapes]

Thanks for your gracious response, Tom. Oh, by the way, something just occurred to me. In my post #27 (at 2:55 pm), when I referred to "your comment," I meant Varis's comment. All of that post was trying to explain to Varis why it was possible that his fermentation went fast AND smelled. I hadn't seen your post #26 before I posted #27.

 

[Pumpkinman]

No probs Paul, I know when to bow my head and admit I fudged up..... bad Tom
Thanks for your reply.
Tom

 

[Snafflebit]

I fermented 7 gallons of must with D254 sprinked right into the must and it was "snap, crackle, popping" after a day but I don't recall foam. I added 0.5 oz of nutrient like Booster Rouge but not that exact type and 0.25 oz of DAP split in 3 doses. I also had a whiff of H2S but it was gone by the end of primary ferment.

 

[geek]

This is now at SG ~1.000, ready to rack to secondary (as per instructions) and now thinking of adding a couple grams of Tannin Complex at this stage.

 

[geek]

Would you guys add some fresh blackberries (crushed by hand) in secondary to add even more flavor or leave as is?

 

[Boatboy24]

Would you guys add some fresh blackberries (crushed by hand) in secondary to add even more flavor or leave as is?

This is a CC Showcase kit, right? I wouldn't mess with it. Maybe additional oak and some finishing tannin at the end, but that's about it.

 

[geek]

right, the CC Showcase.
Yes, I plan to add Tannin complex for bulk aging and 1 american oak spiral, med toast, bulk aging too.

 

[byathread]

For a recent batch of Syrah I did at about 73F with D254, the SG was down from 1.100 to:
48 hours -- 1.082
60 hours -- 1.060
72 hours -- 1.046
84 hours -- 1.034
96 hours -- 1.026

Yeah, I used D254 on my Red Mountain Cab and it went faaaast. Rehydrated in GoFerm, added Fermaid K at about 33% sugar break. Went from 1.102 to 1.025 in 3-1/2 days. This yeast generates a good bit of heat as well. But got through primary without any H2S or off aromas.