Red Wine Grapes - Do I need yeast?

[xriddle]

My dad (italian european) has been making red wine for 30+ years (sometimes great, sometimes not so great) at home and he's never used any yeast or any sulfates. I understand that just because he's never used them it doesn't make it the optimal way to make wine.

I'm making my first batch (merlot & cabernet) on my own this year and all my reading leads me to the same conclusion that sulfates and yeast are recommended.

What's the general concusses here? ... are these mandatory for stable red wine?

My dads wine ferments naturally without any additional yeast but from what I've read introducing a specific yeast can cut down on the fermentation and control what type of fermentation takes place. To quote Matt Kramer from jackkeller.net "...to really understand how wine gets made, as opposed to preserved, you need only understand fermentation. Everything else is flourish."

Thanks in Advance ... Newbie here so please ignore my ignorance.

 

[jswordy]

If you use sulfites in your must, then wait 12 hours, then pitch a good well-matched wine yeast, your Dad is gonna be amazed. Your results will also be very consistent batch to batch.

No sulfite is possible, but the wine must be consumed very young or it will eventually spoil. My grandpa did the Italian natural way and made great wines, but the modern way is a more sure thing. He went through a lot of grapes before finding the variety that had been naturally innoculated to do what he wanted, then bought then for 30 years from the same CA vineyard. You can do the same thing with chemicals and packaged yeast almost instantly. The addition of chemicals is safe and not expensive.

The main thing the additives do is ensure success.

 

[winemaker_3352]

Welcome aboard!!!

First thing - there is nothing wrong making wine that way - a lot of folks do and have great success.

Strains of yeast are engineered to bring out the berries natural elements, flavor and aroma.

Some are better to use if you plan on doing an MLF - other yeasts can metabolize malic acid - others provide floral elements or fruity elements.

Sulphites help to preserve the wine from bacteria invasion and oxidation.

Which ever route you go with - have fun and don't be afraid to circle back here and ask questions....

 

[xriddle]

Great thanks for the info ... So if i understand ... sulfates should go into the must right away and then after 12 hours the yeast goes in. I've read RC212 to be the yeast recommend. How about the sulfites? Anything specific I should try to get or will any kind do?

 

[robie]

The thing about using native yeast is until you have done a few batches at your location, you don't know what yeast is native. It could be a good yeast, or it could be a bad one. If anyone has been making bread, it could even be a bread yeast. It is sort of a gamble until you do that first batch.

Using R212 as an example - once you use it a few times, it most likely will take permanent residence in your wine fermenting room. Next time you ferment, if you don't add a yeast to your wine, it will very likely be the one that will do the fermenting for you. Still, even this is not guaranteed, so if I were you, I would always add the specific yeast, which you intend to ferment your wine.

In addition to that preliminary dose of sulfites (Kmeta), you will need to add another dose when fermentation is complete and you are at the point of needing to stabilize the wine.

 

[xriddle]

Wow thanks to all the great feedback and answers ... Few other Qs ... What is the correct does of Kmeta before and after fermentation? Also do I need yeast energizer and nutrient or is the R212 enough?

 

[winemaker_3352]

I would go with a 1/4 tsp DAP nutrient per gallon of wine for this.

1/4 tsp per 6 gallons of wine for the k-meta prior to fermentation and post fermentation for stabilization.

 

[JohnT]

The thing about using native yeast is until you have done a few batches at your location, you don't know what yeast is native. It could be a good yeast, or it could be a bad one. If anyone has been making bread, it could even be a bread yeast. It is sort of a gamble until you do that first batch.

Using R212 as an example - once you use it a few times, it most likely will take permanent residence in your wine fermenting room. Next time you ferment, if you don't add a yeast to your wine, it will very likely be the one that will do the fermenting for you. Still, even this is not guaranteed, so if I were you, I would always add the specific yeast, which you intend to ferment your wine.

In addition to that preliminary dose of sulfites (Kmeta), you will need to add another dose when fermentation is complete and you are at the point of needing to stabilize the wine.

Robie, I have never thought of that, and think that this is a good subject. If you use a particular strain of yeast, will it take up residence? I know that most yeast is airborn, but I wonder just how much is actually colonizing the surrounding environment. Very interesting!

 

[winemaker_3352]

Robie, I have never thought of that, and think that this is a good subject. If you use a particular strain of yeast, will it take up residence? I know that most yeast is airborn, but I wonder just how much is actually colonizing the surrounding environment. Very interesting!

Yeah I have to agree - I never would have thought of that.

 

[jswordy]

The thing about using native yeast is until you have done a few batches at your location, you don't know what yeast is native. It could be a good yeast, or it could be a bad one. If anyone has been making bread, it could even be a bread yeast. It is sort of a gamble until you do that first batch.

Using R212 as an example - once you use it a few times, it most likely will take permanent residence in your wine fermenting room. Next time you ferment, if you don't add a yeast to your wine, it will very likely be the one that will do the fermenting for you. Still, even this is not guaranteed, so if I were you, I would always add the specific yeast, which you intend to ferment your wine.

In addition to that preliminary dose of sulfites (Kmeta), you will need to add another dose when fermentation is complete and you are at the point of needing to stabilize the wine.

This is an excellent point. Many vineyards in Europe deposit all the finished grape skins and lees along their trellises so that the grapes become innoculated with the yeast. Some have been doing this practice for hundreds of years.

 

[xriddle]

I would go with a 1/4 tsp DAP nutrient per gallon of wine for this.

1/4 tsp per 6 gallons of wine for the k-meta prior to fermentation and post fermentation for stabilization.

So if I plan to make a 12-gallon demijohn I should use 3 teaspoons of DAP nurtirent with my yeast and 1/2 tsp of kmeta pre and post fermentation. Correct?

Does the amount of yeast matter and need to be precise? Can the yeast and nutrient go in at the same time or do you recommend mixing them in a starter?

 

[esdubyajay]

Wow, that bit about the yeast is quite interesting. So, is that something that would be a good thing to do? For example, after mine is done fermenting, would I take the must that is to be discarded and put it where our grapevines are?

 

[winemaker_3352]

So if I plan to make a 12-gallon demijohn I should use 3 teaspoons of DAP nurtirent with my yeast and 1/2 tsp of kmeta pre and post fermentation. Correct?

Does the amount of yeast matter and need to be precise? Can the yeast and nutrient go in at the same time or do you recommend mixing them in a starter?

I always add in the yeast in a measuring cup - get some must and stir until it is dissolved - then stir it into the primary.

Then I inoculate the yeast - when that is done per instructions - like 15 mins - I add the yeast into the primary.

Well not precise - but as close as you can - if you have measuring spoons are just a normal spoon - you should be pretty close.

 

[robie]

I don't have any figures on rates or particulars about yeast becoming native. I have read enough things about it to be convinced it happens. Supposedly, like dust they cover everything and dry out, so they can float down into your wine and rehydrate easily.

If you add your yeast each time, there is little chance such native yeast could ever gain much of a foothold in your batch of wine.

 

[jswordy]

Wow, that bit about the yeast is quite interesting. So, is that something that would be a good thing to do? For example, after mine is done fermenting, would I take the must that is to be discarded and put it where our grapevines are?

Yes, if you want your yeast to become native to the plants and you might like later to try to self-ferment your grapes. This is widely practiced.

South African paper with extensive detail...

http://www.sasev.org/journal-sajev/sajev-articles/volume-20-2/art5%20yeast%20biodiversity%20and%20biogeography.pdf

California paper...

http://www.enologyinternational.com/yeast/wildyeast.html

Argentina...

http://www.formatex.info/microbiology2/1042-1053.pdf

France (summary)...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17040482

...and so on...

Yeast become native to greeny, leafy plants. This is how wine got its start, all by itself.

 

[esdubyajay]

jswordy: thanks. that is very interesting. I'll have to remember that when my fermenting is done!

 

[xriddle]

So its seems to be pretty difficult to get RC212 locally here in Canada ... I've been able to find K1-1118 ... what do you guys think? It seem like it doesn't need nutrients either so its a little simpler, this being my first batch and all.

 

[xriddle]

Also how much 1116 do i need. They sell it in 5g packets and as per the pdf it mentions 25-40 g/ hL

http://www.lalvinyeast.com/images/library/ICV-K1_Yeast.pdf

 

[Bartman]

So its seems to be pretty difficult to get RC212 locally here in Canada ... I've been able to find K1-1118 ... what do you guys think? It seem like it doesn't need nutrients either so its a little simpler, this being my first batch and all.

If it's your first batch, I would definitely start with EC-1118. It's the easiest to work with and most forgiving as you get used to the process. Not sure if that's what you meant - you seemed to conflate K1V-1116 and EC-1118. I've never used (or seen) K1V-1116 so I don't know anything about it. Your best bet is EC-1118 as it's the surest, most reliable and over-whelming of commercial yeast strains.

 

[GreginND]

K1 V1116 is a Lalvin yeast strain from the Montpellier region of France. It has a high alcohol tolerance (18%) and does well even under low nutrient conditions. It can produce floral esters.