Red Wine

[Dino466]

First red I made was a Winekitz Gamay Bergamais - no oak - big red cherry flavour . Loved it - I did not drink much red at the time.Since starting to make wine I have gone from a white wine drinker to reds. Now I prefer reds and I prefer some to stronger oak flavour, depends on the wine. And I think taste develop over time and changes. I think the more red wine you consume (not in one sitting) the more you will lean towards more oak flavouring.

 

[olusteebus]

I have oaked two times if am correct. Both times were a disaster. One red, one white. It seems to me, never oak a wine you want to drink within a year. On the white, I may have a different problem that I don't know about. I should not have but I oaked a Coastal White.

 

[peaches9324]

Bergamais is a great intro to red wines and as far as oaking whites I found the timing is of essence. I oaked one of my pear wine and it sucked! If I had racked it earlier off the oak it would of been good.

 

[GreginND]

My apologies sour grapes if my opinion offended you.

I don't think sour grapes was offended. I also wonder what you intended with this thread. I am not offended, just confused. Let me explain why.

You posted saying red wine should be oaked then asked if people agree or not. After only one response you state rather emphatically that all red wine must be oaked. Then you post talking about how the characteristics of the oak on color, stability and clarity should be considered when making the decision to oak, implying that not all red wine should be oaked? That it is still a decision to be decided based on a number of factors? And, if you are so emphatic and "vain" as you say about this topic, why do you want to hear others' opinions? So, I understand why sour grapes may have asked what the purpose of the post was.

But, back to your original premise - "all red wines must be oaked":

Since you asked if we agree or disagree, I will offer my opinion.

I disagree! It depends on the grape, the style and the vintage. Some red grapes, such as Baltica, are best unoaked to allow the young bright cherry flavors to shine. A Marquette, on the other hand, will generally always benefit from oak.

So, I disagree because there are no general rules that will apply to every red grape.

 

[sour_grapes]

Yes, Greg correctly intuited my take, and articulated it in a way I could not. That is exactly what I meant!

 

[lawrstin]

I don't think sour grapes was offended. I also wonder what you intended with this thread. I am not offended, just confused. Let me explain why.



You posted saying red wine should be oaked then asked if people agree or not. After only one response you state rather emphatically that all red wine must be oaked. Then you post talking about how the characteristics of the oak on color, stability and clarity should be considered when making the decision to oak, implying that not all red wine should be oaked? That it is still a decision to be decided based on a number of factors? And, if you are so emphatic and "vain" as you say about this topic, why do you want to hear others' opinions? So, I understand why sour grapes may have asked what the purpose of the post was.



But, back to your original premise - "all red wines must be oaked":



Since you asked if we agree or disagree, I will offer my opinion.



I disagree! It depends on the grape, the style and the vintage. Some red grapes, such as Baltica, are best unoaked to allow the young bright cherry flavors to shine. A Marquette, on the other hand, will generally always benefit from oak.



So, I disagree because there are no general rules that will apply to every red grape.

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[lawrstin]

I'm certainly passionate that any red should be oaked. I would love to hear other than it's a personal taste preference against oak. Isn't everything us little winemakers do a personal preference?

Certainly, if one is to make wine he must consider why we add oak or do not add oak. The fascinating history behind how oak came to be incorporated in wine making was no accident.

Since there is so much we really still don't understand about oaking six hundred years later since it's inception I consider it's a valid question.

Peace and love.


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[GreginND]

Well, unfortunately it is even more complicated. When you say "oak", do you mean barrel aged? If it is not barrel aged then you do not get the micro oxygenation and concentration due to evaporation. You are absolutely correct that we still don't have a full understanding of the factors that influence 'oaring'.

And I don't know that it is all about personal taste. A balanced wine is better than an unbalanced wine. This also has to do with oak or not, oxygenation or not, regardless of my personal taste. Some grapes may become less balanced with oak treatment.

 

[botigol]

Additionally, there is the topic of how much oak. I like and expect oak in certain wines, but I have tasted far too much chateau plywood in the last couple of decades. That said, there are plenty of people who like that profile, because they keep producing it.

So, I disagree and even if we find common ground on which to agree, we may disagree on the details.

 

[sour_grapes]

The fascinating history behind how oak came to be incorporated in wine making was no accident.

Wait! I am confused. I thought that the marriage of oak and wine was an accident, a happy accident. What is the history that you refer to? (This is an honest question.)

Peace and love.

Ditto. Served with wine.

 

[lawrstin]

Oak Barrels were not an accident but a necessity and the only practical means of transporting wine for distribution back in the day.


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[sour_grapes]

Oak Barrels were not an accident but a necessity and the only practical means of transporting wine for distribution back in the day.

Okay, thanks. That was my understanding, too. It's just that I filed that under "accident." (I mean, what if it had happened that cedar trees made the best barrels?)

I suppose I also file "retsina" under happy accident.

 

[lawrstin]

There was no MTV or reality TV so great wise men actually thought the process through (joke).


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[lawrstin]

Another attribute of oaking is tannins. The word tannin origin is tanna from high German and it does translate in English to mean "oak".

Tannins + Health = Good.

and

Tannins make age worthy wines.


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[terroirdejeroir]

I have been reluctant to chime in here because my experience level is just kind of middlin'. My first question is: are you referring to oaking after primary fermentation only or do you mean any oak whatsoever?

I have produced wines with no oak beyond the primary and I generally like them. I have produced rather heavily oaked wines and I generally like them too. However, I really don't like what I would refer to as oak flavor. In other words, I don't want the wine to taste at all like wood. That being said, I do love the flavor profile that oak brings to the wine once the oakiness has aged out.

I concur with the earlier poster that I wouldn't want to oak an early drinker. It seems to me that oaked wine takes a minimum of nine months to be drinkable and sometimes much longer.

 

[david77daniel]

Hi !

From what I know ... when it comes to Oak .... you should always ask yourself how much tannin do you really want .

For example a soft wine like Pinot Noir doesn't really enjoy Oak that much . Pinot Noir is wine that is well produced in Germany where the temperature is really low ... so Pinot Noir is really soft and with great flavors and aromas .

On the other hand you can have a wine like Cabernet ... where you should always ask yourself ... How much oak do I want , this wine already has lots of tannin , so especially if you have a new barrel , you should always pose yourself that question !!

 

[david77daniel]

There are 2 ways of making Oak barrels - the french way (aka European way) , and the American way .

The French did not make barrels out of their oaks until the wood did not stay for about 3 years outside so the sun and the rain would change it, so most of the tannin would wash away . After that the oak was burned so it would give a toasty aroma .

The Americans handled differently the oak , they did not wait that long .... so their oak makes a wine too coarse , because most of the tannin is still in the wood .

They also use steam instead of fire .... so it doesn't have that nice aroma of toast ... an aroma that Chardonnay loves very much .

American Chardonnay is too oaky ... a lot of people would say !!

From what I know Americans started to use the European way of making barrels !!

 

[joshjacobsen]

Hi all,

Just discovered Winemaking Talk, very helpful content as I'm new to winemaking so thanks for everyone's contributions.

I see mention of Bergamais in this forum so wanted to piggyback w/ a question I had, specifically - does anyone know what it means? I gather that it's a Gamay but I'm puzzled as to why it isn't called that as I can't find any information on Bergamais (ie it it a region, a producer, a language translation)? Asking simply because I'd like to know what I'm buying if I go this route as it'd seemingly be easy to purchase a kit or concentrate thinking it's one thing only to find out it's another.

Thanks!

 

[StBlGT]

Yes, it is a gamay, and bergamais is a wine style named from the beaujolais region of france.

Edit: wow, this is an old thread...

 

[joshjacobsen]

Thanks, hadn't even realized how old this thread was .