Revisions to starter packages

[geocorn]

This Christmas we learned a valuable lesson at the store. We have too many different starter packages. As a result, new wine makers were confused. We are going to modify our starter packages to be consistent accross the equipment only, scratch and wine kit packages.


I would like the Beginners Package to continue to be the "core" package with packages above and below the beginners package. All of the equipment would be the same in all beginners packages, but with the wine kit package you get a WE kit, with a scratch package, you get the ingredients and acid test kit, etc.


What I would like is your feedback regarding the contents of my packages and your suggestions for improving them. For example, I think the beginners kit should include a carboy brush and the deluxe kit should include a bottle brush. I also think I should upgrade the whip to the mix-stir in the deluxe. Any more ideas?

 

[Steve]

One of the biggest things I did not like about the kit was I only had 5' of hose. With the auto siphon this was very difficult and I mad a bit of a mess. Maybe provide 10 feet and they can cut it down if needed. Also, the bottle filler is not spring loaded which can make for quite a mess. I see that there is not a 1/2" spring loaded in your catalog, if you can get this it should be in the basic kit.


A few things that I found to be really handy that could be included in the deluxe kit: hose clips 4881, clamp 4860, 30 bottlesvice 24 so they have enough for the kit.


For scratch wine if you are only making a 1 gallonbatch you need a test jar and baster for your hydrometer, the wine thief becomes difficult to use for small batches.


Just some things I ran into or found useful in my short time being a winemaker...


P.S. Why not throw in a free grape press or oak barrel...

 

[smurfe]

Well, Steve beat me to the punch, I was gonna suggest hose clips as well. I keep saying I am gonna get some from you but my order just keeps getting pushed back with Christmas this year. Man did we go over budget this year. I constantly have the a hose fly out of a carboy or the bucket and make huge messes all over the floor. In fact, I bottled a kit a couple nights ago and it was the first kit I bottled I didn't make a complete mess in the kitchen. I didn't spill a drop on the floor. Now I had a bottle that took me 9 attempts to get a cork set right but that is another issue in itself.


Anyways, As stated, more hose would be great. I myself was surprised when I ordered my Deluxe, premiere kit from you that a bottle brush was not included. I sort of understand the 24 bottles instead of 30 as they come 12 to a case. Only other option would to include 36 bottles.


One other item you might include is blank label paper. I know you include labels with orders that you generously make up for us but I know many love to make their own with their own graphics. Might not be a bad item to add. I personally think there should be 2 Carboys as well but you "can" get by with just one by racking to the bucket then back to your carboy after you sanitize it.


There are numerous various options you can add but personally, I think I would just offer two kits. Beginners and Deluxe but you don't want to make them so far apart that you scare someone from buying the deluxe kits. I really hate to see someone buy a beginners kit though as the upgraded items is what truly makes this hobby worthwhile, less stressful and more fun. Would I like this hobby *** much if I had to cork bottles with a hand corker? I doubt it. I have enough issues at times with my deluxe floor corker. I could only imagine what it would be like with a hand corker.


Too bad you didn't have some kind of fancy software that let the buyer build their own kits. It would have a section by section choice like the build your vehicle programs on the car maker web sites. You go through each section and it for example lets you choose your carboy, glass or better bottle with the upgrade options adding to the price. Then for example which corker you want or which bottle filler, etc etc etc. Let the person build the exact kit they want.


Of course most that do come to you to buy these kits are newbies who have no clue what they want or need so maybe that is a bad idea LOL You all know me though, always thinking about something bizarre LOL


Overall, you do a great job and I am very pleased with my kit I bought from you other than the fact it didn't have a dozen carboys but that has been taken care of. Wish I could throw more ideas to you, If I do, I will defiantly pass the info along


Smurfe

Edited by: smurfe

 

[Big Port]

I have the 1 gallon kit and the only complaint I have has been mentioned already....hose is too short. Also, I don't know about any one else, but I haven't even opened the wine thief that came with my kit yet, a turkey baster seems soo much easier, but I can't compare the two because I haven't used the thief yet. <?amespace prefix = v ns = "urnchemas-microsoft-com:vml" /></vtroke></v></v></v></v></v></v></v></v></v></v></v></v></vlas></vath><?amespace prefix = o ns = "urnchemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" /><o:lock aspectratio="t" vxt="edit"></o:lock></vape></vmage></vape>

 

[peterCooper]

I really get value out of the wine thief/test jar. I have never used anything
else and it makes taking a test sample out of the carboy so easy, its just dip
and drop. I can see how a baster can work though.

 

[bilbo-in-maine]

Stir-X for sure in any kit. The whips don't last long and then the buyer
feels a little gyped, especially when it breaks on the first stir as mine did.

If you really plan to offer acid testing in the scratch package, I have to say
that a pH meter with ability to provide TA reading is a better deal than a
simple TA kit, but so much more expensive, so I don't know how you
judge that George.

 

[geocorn]

A lot of good suggestions, so far, but I have to keep the starter packages priced properly. Tubing clamps are doable, but a fizz-X is not.Remember, these are starter packages. My starter packages are designed to make sure the first batch is a success. From there, they will have to add more "toys".

 

[smurfe]

I think the most important thing is to keep the Premiere kits reasonably priced and market the customer toward these kits. In my opinion the Premiere kits do not have any "frills" I feel the items in these kits are necessary materials to make a good end product. To end the confusion make the Premiere kit the Deluxe kit and just have 2. I know you can get by with less but it increases the workload and in some areas you have to get "creative" to get the job done. I guess I have always had the philosophy of using the right tool for the job.


I don't know what the margins are in these kits but one other item that might be upgraded in the kits if you were to keep the 3 levels is to have a Select wine kit in the Premiere instead of the VR kit. I know you upgrade these for the cost difference though and are wanting to keep the price of the Premiere kits as well as all the kits as low as possible.


Many don't really realize that your Beginner kits are actually fairly comprehensive as compared to other company's beginners kits which will call Economy kits. I am sure this was a tough decision to make as a businessman not to offer a kit with the cheapest materials possible just to get the customers through. The sad thing though is that many who are unsure if they will like this hobbybuy these kits. We already know those that throw this stuff out there have poor customer service and this and the cheap materials drive a future addict away. I was one of these undecided in the beginning and struggled where I would buy from. First I looked at price, then I learned that "free shipping" was no where near "free".


I am a huge forum fan and am members of forums in all of my hobbies as well as host one of my own in my profession of EMS, (which BTW is one of the largest on the Internet) I was able to decipher this new hobby and for some reason I was always directed to the "Star in the Sky" to west. (Betcha thought I was gonna say east huh?) If new or potential customers can be led to the forums to ask their questions this can be a valuable asset as well. Many folks have no idea what Forums are or how they operate. This media isa valuable resource to the customers that can answer their questions and save them tons of money in the long run as well as make the experience that much more enjoyable. I don't think I would enjoy my wine making experience at all without the camaraderie one gets from my closeknit community here.


If you really compare apples to apples there are very few companies out there that truly offer service and value. I have bought stuff from a few places but have met disappointments with most of them so now there is only one other place I will buy from besides here and that is rare and that is normallyonly products that George doesn't stock like kits besides Wine Experts (Yeah, I know you can order stuff now).


So what does this have to do with the original question? Not a damn thing, but I thought I would post another one of my off the wall and off the beaten path Epics with the hope that if just one new Vintner reads this and learns anything from it I will have a feeling of satisfaction that I help another newbie make a wise decision and buy quality material from a stand up vendor who offersa more than fair price with customer service that rivals anyoneswhile meeting a great group of folks here that will only enhance their experience.


So now the Cliff Notes version of this post:


Newbies, buy the Premiere Starter Kit. It is not added frills, you won't regret it. It is more of an investment but it is truly an investment toward years of quality enjoyment, plus it helps get that "cost per bottle" down quicker cause if you like this hobby, you defiantly will spend the money very soon and buy this stuff later then you will have wasted your money on the items you will no longer use like the hand corker.


NUFF SAID


Smurfe

Edited by: smurfe

 

[Vaughn]

You are a wise and shrewd business man, George! You have to make a package that has as few "disappointments" as possible at the best possible price. You don't want to scare people away with a high priced equipment package. You also don't want people to have a bad first experience...both business killers.


My only suggestion would be to replace the whip with a Mix-stir. Everything elsewas great.


My first kit choice was the French Cabernet.I like the wine. But it didn't start out great. It needed a few months to mellow out. You may want to steer customers towine kits thatare more palatable earlier. That way,they feel successful right off. The Bourgeron Blanc and the Petite Sirah were both fantastic right out of the carboy.

 

[smurfe]

My first kit choice was the French Cabernet.I like the wine. But it didn't start out great. It needed a few months to mellow out. You may want to steer customers towine kits thatare more palatable earlier. That way,they feel successful right off. The Bourgeron Blanc and the Petite Sirah were both fantastic right out of the carboy.

He actually does do a good job of this and I am sure is the reason for the VR kits over the Selection kits in the starter packages. I bottled a kit of VRBourgeron Rouge that I have been drinking on daily since 2-3 days after I bottled it. Tastes just like store bought.


Smurfe

 

[peterCooper]

George,

I didn't buy my starter kit from you, I get to this forum after buying it
(mistake that was). Perhaps the biggest issue I've had with my starter kit
is the quality of the items, not the items themselves.In particular, the
corks. The corks that came with my strarter were poor quality. almost all
of them seeped through and I ended up with one bottle of my first wine
"corked" (Actually it smelled musty out of the bottle, which was a new
one). I didn't have similar problems with other bottles, so I am assuming
it was a cork issue and not a general sanitzation issue with the vinting
process.

All this to say, use your corks in the starter kits, not a cheaper
alternative.

When I saw people raving about your corks in the corks, bottles and
labels topic, my initial reaction was "yeah, right". Still, I bought some and
I will now not use any other. I have never had a leak or seep through on
one of yours.

 

[MedPretzel]

Okay, I looked at the starter package 9002 again:
<UL>
<LI>Plastic fermentation vessel
<LI>hydrometer
<LI>airlock
<LI>bung
<LI>siphon tube (longer)
<LI>tube clamp
<LI>glass carboy (I'd add 2 to it)
<LI>corks
<LI>double-lever corker</LI>[/list]





This is what I would have liked. Just an equipment package.The things like pectic enzyme, nutrient, and yeast is more for the scratch-winers. (I know I took this off the scratch-wine kit you have, so I'm not sure what comes with a kit-wine kit) I don't think the recipe book reallyadded or subtracted to my starter package.The internet is a big reference, and mostpeople who find you, George, are in the internet and have done their research, so I don't think the recipe book is all that helpful. At least it wasn't to me.


I'd make this in "1-gallon" size and in 5-gallon size. Extras (if you want to make bronze, silver and gold packages of each) could include things like wine-thiefs, fizz-exs, ph-meters, and filters.I also think you should include maybe a certain type of "free-pass" for 1 item totalling x amount of dollars. That allows some leeway for the person who would like the 1-gallon starter kit, for example, but also maybe 5 bottles. ??!!?? I don't know if that would be helpful or more confusing, but maybe with some feedback here, you could see.


But a lot are looking just for equipment. I stand by my theory of "# of wines + 1" carboy. It's always good to have at least one carboy extra for racking.


I might also suggest you concoct a "Expansion" kit. For the winemaker who has, let's say, bought the basic equipment kit. You could add the fizz-ex, the ph-meter, or the gravity filter. It might be something at least to look into.


Furthermore, you could create a "supply kit" with the usual nutrient, energizer, campden, acid blend, tannin, pectic enzyme, sanitizer, etc. I'm always forgetting something when I order more "powders".

An easy 1-click for all of them is something that I would like to see. But that might just be me.


Essentially, that way you could sell the "equipment kit" + "supply kit" for scratch-winers. If they follow recipes, you really don't need acid testers and the like.


What you could throw in as an extra, which I would have liked to see is a "What you have at home already" checklist. Things like:
<UL>
<LI>Measuring spoons</LI>
<LI>Pill crusher (for campdens)</LI>
<LI>Long plastic spoons</LI>
<LI>Turkey baster</LI>
<LI>glasses</LI>
<LI>Saving your wine bottles</LI>[/list]


Hate to say it, George, but the Dollar Stores around here have 3 different sized plastic spoons, pill crushers and the like for a buck. But I'm an "improvisation" master, so maybe others feel differently.


Also, you might want to consider something a little more out-there. I've been thinking of this in a major way for a while. I have a lot of equipment that is still in excellent condition, but I've basically outgrown it as the years went on. Have you maybe ever considered something like "trade-ins?" Say, trade-in your double-lever corker for a floor-corker?

This may bebetter for your "live" customers, not your internet customers. You could then expand your kits with "like-new" equipment, thus bringing the prices down further. I do not know of anyone else out there in the internet doing this. You could be the pioneer in this. Now, I know you couldn't do this with a lot of equipment, but it certainly might be looked into. Here I would say, corkers, cappers, bottle-washers, filters (upgrading from gravity to mini, for example) are definetly that are being re-sold on ebay.





Well, this turned out to be another long-winded "Martina Post." And I haven't had any wine today!!!

Hope it helps in one way or another.








Martina

 

[MedPretzel]

Hmm, you've sort of intrigued me with this post, George. I had to run downstairs and I took an "evaluation look" to see what I use often.


Bungs, airlocks.
Hyrdrometer
Carboys
Measuring spoons
thermometer
goof-off (for hard-to-clean bottle labels)
screwdriver (don't ask)
label paper
sugar (for scratch wines)
drill / wine whip (hopefully santa is bringing me that fizz-ex!)
brew-belt
carboy hauler
measuring cup
supplies (acid blend, pectic enzyme and the likes)
masking tape (to label my carboys with what's in there, when I started, yeast used, beginning SG)
pen
post-its


Now, a lot of things I had at home already. But.....


Advertising is everything. Let me start from the bottom up:


Try advertising with your equipment kits: Add a "FVW" pen to your kits. Everyone needs one, and I am always taking mine all over the house. I now added one with a string, and attached it to my wine-making table. I cannot take it anywhere. (hint, hint

)


A post it with "The Winemaker's Toy Store" with webaddress and phone-number is helpful too. My wine-lab is in my basement, my computer in the attic, I use post its to stick my notes to my body when I go upstairs. Helpful.


The masking tape is also great. It's easy peel-on/peel-off and I think helps me. Easy peel-on/peel-off stickers for your carboys (with FVW logo and web-address, of course) would be neat, and I would order like 100's of them. Hehehe


Supplies. I got my starter package at your friends at Leeners. I liked that they re-packaged their supllies in their own bottles. I wash them out and re-use them, because they are much easier to use than the ones from LD Carlson. (see picture) The mouths of these little jars are larger, and I can use measuring spoons a lot better with them.

Spencer, the hand-model

The carboy hauler/brew-belt/wine-whip/label paper/thermometer/mortar and pestle could all be that "free-pas" item, equaling let's say 12 bucks.


Lots of the other stuff is what I have at home already.





Again, I hope this helps.





M.Edited by: MedPretzel

 

[geocorn]

Keep in mind, these are STARTER packages, not "everything in my store" packages. A starter packages has what you need to make sure your first batch is a success. Keep in mind that a $1,000 starter package will not appeal to very many people.

 

[smurfe]

Well, once again, I was "out typed" I was going to suggest a few things that Martina mentioned. It might be a good ideas to sell the kits in Modules. Have the basic equipment then have a kit maker module, a scratch maker module and the such.


Martina is also correct that many probably did a ton of research when they make it to you. I do notice now that you are a "sponsor link" on Google. Very wise move there. So actually, you may have more "uneducated" visitors than in the past.


While the idea of trade in items is novel, I think the shipping would be unfeasible and create a storage headache. It might be a great idea for local customers though. You could always open an EBay store to dispose of these used items as well as sale items you might have or slower moving items or kits close to expiration.


Well, I to am starting to get off topic so I will end now. One other point, the 2 carboys is still an excellent idea. I almost bought my starter kit from another company that offered 2 carboys in their kit. It was the Italian Floor Corker that nailed it for me buying from you. The other kit was considerably higher with the floor corker (much more than the price of another carboy and shipping) which was the red one to boot and not the blue one. BTW, the red isn't bad at all but the blue one is better IMHO. On a side note, if I would of got 2 carboys and the red floor corker in my kit I would of been in hog heaven. Another idea for you when figuring price points and profit margins.


Smurfe

 

[smurfe]

Keep in mind, these are STARTER packages, not "everything in my store" packages. A starter packages has what you need to make sure your first batch is a success. Keep in mind that a $1,000 starter package will not appeal to very many people.

LOL, good point. But hey, its your fault, we are the junkies and you are our supplier! Now excuse me, gotta go "get me a fix"


Smurfe

 

[MedPretzel]

Using the Starter kit 1000


5104 - Fermenting Bucket 6.5 gallon (US) Bucket only
5106 - Lid for 6.5 gallon bucket
5426 - Dual Scale Liquid Thermometer
5451 - Triple Hydrometer
4600 - Airlock
4850 - Tubing
4858 - Clamp
4880 - Clip
6202A - Corks


Added:
5156 - 5-gallon carboy (or 6) maybe plastic for internet people.


This 5-6 gallon kit could be sold for 50 dollars. (I did the math)


I used 1.50 for item 4850, made the carboy 20 bucks.


If you sold the kit for $65, throwing in a "free item of your choice",
Item 4039
Item 5168
Item 5231
Item 5432


or a starter "powder" package including the following items
6120A
6003
6382
6300A
6368A


could be added and still have a reasonable profit-margin.

 

[MedPretzel]

Did a bit of research for you. On ebay, someone is selling a "Deluxe Winemaking kit" http://cgi.ebay.com/DELUXE-Wine-Making-Kit-with-ingredients_ W0QQitemZ4427693563QQcategoryZ38172QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem





Bid (and reserve) is at 91.87. He's charging roughly 18 bucks for shipping. Your current prices are in bold/italic. I doubt you get full-bottles of the "powder" stuff at the end, so that is how I imagine he's making his money. I took the smallest bottles you had. You beat him hands down!








COST - if purchasing everything separately............



6.5 Gallon Fermenting Bucket with Drilled Lid $13.90 12.98
5 Gallon Glass $21.50 17.99
S-Shaped Airlock $1.00 .72
#7 Rubber Bung for the Carboy $.85 .88
an extra Cylinder Airlock with a #2 Rubber Bung for topper $1.50 1.60
Wine Hydrometer (your most essential tool $6.50 5.99
Bottle Filler $2.30 2.29
23" Curved Racking Tube with an Anti-Sediment Tip $2.00 1.99
Racking Tube Holder (Bucket Clip) $1.50 1.49
6 feet of Siphon Hose with Hose Clamp $2.10 .1.99
Wine Bottle Brush $3.95 2.99
Plastic Hand Corker $6.95 6.95
#8 Straight Wine Corks $4.60 3.90
One-Step Cleaner/Sanitizer 8 oz $2.55 2.99
Getting Started in Winemaking Book $3.95 1.99
Winemaker's Recipe Handbook $3.95 2.99
Nylon (reuseable) straining bag $4.50 3.49
Wine Base (average) $27.75 20.00
Acid Blend $1.25 1.19
Nutirent Powder $.95 1.25
Pectic Enzyme $.80 1.99
Grape Tannin $.80 1.99
Campden Tablets $.55 2.39
Stabilizer $.70 1.49
Sparkolloid $.80 1.59
Wine Yeast $.55 .69
TOTAL ----- $117.75!!!! FVW --&gt; 105.80





I have to say, if I'd bespending 100 bucks, the hand-corker is bogus. I'd replace it with a double-levered one. He doesn't say how many corks he offers either. Probably 25. The yeast provided is also not stated. the 23" racking tube was replaced by the racking cane. I averaged the grape-concentrates to 20 bucks.


Well, I better get back to the books.

All this math made my head hurt again.

Edit: He stated that it's a Raspberry Puree, Vinter's Harvest. You've got it for 14.99... That would bring your total down to: $100.97


Edit again: Duh. You've gotthe same thingfor 25.99. Brings your total to: $111.79Edited by: MedPretzel

 

[Waldo]

Martina...I have been pondering your statement for a while now,


"I've been thinking of this in a major way for a while. I have a lot of equipment that is still in excellent condition, but I've basically outgrown it as the years went on. Have you maybe ever considered something like "trade-ins?"


What if George started or allowed a FVW Yard Sale amongst the members of the forum. We coulds trade and swap stuff we no longer used or needed Hmmmmmm ..NAW...Probably not

 

[geocorn]

I have tried to keep my mouth shut, but obviously, you have not read my return policy. It basically says that I will take ANYTHING back at any time, no questions asked. If you want to upgrade, just send me your trade-in and I will credit the purchase price of the trade-in against the upgrade. You keep forgetting with whom you are dealing.


On the other hand, I would be happy to set up a yard sale page for anyone to off load any unwanted equipment.