RJ Spagnols RJS Changes - not for the better I think

[ratflinger]

I saw on a website I won't mention that RJS is making serious changes to their line up. Grand Cru line is gone. Cru Select (which I make for my table wine) is going from a 16L kit to a 12L kit & En Primeur is going from 18L to 14L. Cru International is going to a 8L kit. Restricted Release stays at 23L. Yet they are claiming the same end result. Their target is March, this is not on the official RJS website. I'm thinking this is a bad move, your thoughts?

 

[ratflinger]

Looks like WinExpert is doing this too.

 

[Handy Turnip]

Looks like WinExpert is doing this too.

View attachment 70947

The Winexpert change was made earlier last year - I've made a few kits under the new branding and juice quantities, and haven't seen any drop in quality personally.

 

[JBP]

I live fairly close to the retail location of one of the big boys (Midwest). Just checked their website and noticed that they are sold out of many RJS products right now - looks like there may be a lag between the old and the new. Wondering if I should head to the store to see what is available on the floor (store and warehouse for mail order are separate).

 

[winemaker81]

Ditto. I have WE Cabernet Sauvignon & Chardonnay in process, and both taste/smell good. There is a lot of skepticism regarding the new-and-improved concentrate process WE is using, but it seems to be proving out.

 

[JohnW]

Ditto. I have WE Cabernet Sauvignon & Chardonnay in process, and both taste/smell good. There is a lot of skepticism regarding the new-and-improved concentrate process WE is using, but it seems to be proving out.

Good to hear. I haven't tried any of the new kits yet but I'm optimistic the quality will be on par with the previous versions. I doubt these big companies wouldn't make this change if the end product wasn't roughly the same quality. That said I did order the older (12l) version Grand Cru International - Italian Nebbiolo yesterday from MoreWine. I'm hedging my bets.

 

[Old Corker]

About a month ago I started two kits at the same time. Literally poured the bags into the fermenters one right after the other. One was a MV 10L kit and the other a WE 8L kit. Just watching the liquids go into the pails the WE concentrate had markedly heavier viscosity (not sure that's the right terminology) than the 10L liquid. Of course there are other factors that could account for the this observation but the difference was striking. Both are currently in clearing stage so it will be a while before the results can be compared. Both are medium bodied reds that I made into 5gal. batches and added 1C of currants to. I am in the optimistic camp for these new denser kits from WE. Haven't seen the RJS ones yet.

 

[pillswoj]

Having spoken to someone who attended the launch for the new RJS line, it appears to be less then ideal. This is a cost saving move due to high juice costs. There research shows that even in the EP line the majority of their customers drink the wine between 6 month and a year and they will notice no difference in the quality of the wine. The general feeling is those of us who age the EP reds for 2 or more years will notice a decrease in quality.

 

[skyfire322]

It looks like they just started making cider kits. I wonder if they're adjusting to branch out into different areas of brewing.

 

[ratflinger]

Well I orginally moved to the higher liter kits for a better product. Now granted I usually have only 9 mo on my table wines but I do run the En Premiur to 3 years to have a really good wine. I'm sure the big retailers were pushing too, to keep the price of their 'free' shipping down.

 

[winemaker81]

This is a cost saving move due to high juice costs.

This doesn't make sense. The concentrate is supposed to be denser, so a smaller volume provides the same end result. Given that the ABV is supposed to be the same, unless sugar is being added, using less juice will produce a lower OG.

I'm not arguing about what you were told, but unless I'm missing something (which is entirely possible), the statement doesn't make sense.

 

[pillswoj]

This doesn't make sense. The concentrate is supposed to be denser, so a smaller volume provides the same end result. Given that the ABV is supposed to be the same, unless sugar is being added, using less juice will produce a lower OG.

I'm not arguing about what you were told, but unless I'm missing something (which is entirely possible), the statement doesn't make sense.

Premium wine kits are a blend of Concentrate and unconcentrated Juice, The higher end kits (Current 18L EP etc) have a large volume of unconcentrated Juice and a small volume of concentrate. The lower volume kits have more concentrate and less unconcentrated juice.

WineExpert claimed to have improved there process to have the concentrate be more concentrated but they also reduced the unconcentrated juice in the kits, so has RJS.

And yes when you get into the cheapest kits there is sugar added as well.

 

[pillswoj]

Here it is from RJS website:


The Wine Kit Bladder

• RJS Craft Winemaking juice bladders range from 5.4 litres to 18 litres (approx. 2 gal – 5 gal). They include juice and juice concentrate.
• Juice = stabilized juice
• Juice concentrate = juice from which some of the water content has been removed and must be reconstituted with fresh, soft water to required volume for making wine

Entry level kits are primarily concentrate. The higher the tier, the more juice and less concentrate. Juice generally contributes more varietal characteristics. The juice and concentrate are blended and balanced in our production facilities, pasteurized, and packaged.

Wine Kit & Ingredients | RJS Craft Winemaking

 

[winemaker81]

WineExpert claimed to have improved there process to have the concentrate be more concentrated but they also reduced the unconcentrated juice in the kits, so has RJS.

Thanks for the update. I had not realized they had cut the juice in the kits, so this all makes sense.

 

[pillswoj]

Although they never reveal the exact ratios we can do some math and get rough estimates:

If the 5.4 L was primarily concentrate then 5.4x=23, x=23/5.4 the concentrate is 4.26 to 1 max. they say mostly so lets drop the concentrate to 4:1.

The current 18L kits:

y/4 + y = 18 L The y/4 is the concentrate

5/4y = 18, y= 18*4/5
y = 14.4 L

Even if the concentrate was only 3.0:1, y would be 13.5 L of juice in an 18L kit

So a current 18 L kit has somewhere between 13.5 and 14.5 L of Juice in it, the new kits are 14L total there is no level of improved concentration that makes the math work.

 

[wineh]

This doesn't make sense. The concentrate is supposed to be denser, so a smaller volume provides the same end result. Given that the ABV is supposed to be the same, unless sugar is being added, using less juice

In the dark ages of wine kits, you got 5l of concentrate in a can, and some yeast. They made a grape-like product with some alcohol, and were not very good.
In the 1990s, WineXpert claims to have "invented the modern wine kit". They added a bunch of fresh juice to the concentrate to give them a more "varietal character". In order to make them "shelf stable", the fresh juice portion needed to be flash pasteurized so they wouldn't start fermenting (because of natural yeasts) on the shelf. In fact, Mosti Mondiale makes (or made) 23l kits that had to be shipped cold because they were in fact fresh juice. In the years that followed, manufacturers added more juice, oak additions and even grapeskin packs to further enhance our experience. Life was good!
Recently, winexpert and others are downsizing their kits, and claiming no reduction in quality. My question is... Which is harder on grape juice : flash pasteurization or vacuum concentration? The kit manufacturers seem to be leaning towards the former and if that is the case, wouldn't the logical outcome be that they would go back to pure concentrate kits? I sure hope not!
I believe it's about saving money! A smaller volume of juice costs less, fits in a smaller bag which fits into a smaller box which is lighter and costs less to ship. Combine that with some marketing gobbledygook, and the result is the kits we will be getting from now on.
I have Bottled a new stag's leap merlot and agree it tastes better out of the carboy than the old version. However, wines that mature faster also fade faster (the 2 times rule), so for me, this experiment is going to last 3 years!

 

[Handy Turnip]

What I find interesting is that RJS have followed the same route as Winexpert (I assume that they are different companies?) which would indicate that this is an innovation led change that doesn't affect quality. And consequently RJS would be foolish not to follow the same route so that they can enjoy the same cost saving benefits that come with the change.

However.. if there was a true impact on quality, then both RJS and Winexpert would know this - so as soon as WE made the change, the logical step for RJS would be to take advantage of this, and start to advertise their kits as being much better quality than WE. What a marketing coup that would be! And judging by the reactions on here, that confirmation would swing so much business from WE to RJS.

So that the fact that the former has happened and not the latter makes me think there isn't any quality drop - doesn't seem to make any logical sense otherwise.

 

[winemaker81]

The quandary we have is that it's too soon to tell. The new process WE kits have only been out since (?) last spring, and the RJS are not yet on the market. My WE taste great post-fermentation (for green wines), but it will be another year before I'll really know.

For me it may not matter -- now that I have access to good quality Vinifera, I won't be buying red kits. I'm also thinking of going with frozen juice buckets and skipping white kits.

 

[Putterrr]

I told one of my brew stores when they called to see if I wanted to order any LE kits, that I wasn't sold on the new sizes having the same quality as the 18L kits I usually make. RJS would get all my business going forward. Now I find out that they are also reducing kit sizes. I must admit I'm a but disappointed. I went to another brew store today and bought 6 18L RJS kits and ordered another 3. That should get me through the year. After that, who knows?

cheers

 

[pillswoj]

I plan on moving to fresh must for the bulk of my red requirements, I am close enough to Niagara wine region that it is a nice drive. Plan on doing a 4-5 buckets this fall of Cab Franc and Merlot.