Searching the Internet

[JimInNJ]

Is it just me? I search for product X, wanting to find out if anyone has any actual experience with it. I find thousands of vendors repeating the identical manufacturer's marketing blurb. Eventually I find a few people posting on forums about the product.

But the forum posts invariably take the form:

Product X is great! [Quotes manufacturer's marketing blurb.] I just used it for the first time and will post the results soon. [Last updated seven years ago.]

Or:

Product X is great! [Quotes manufacturer's marketing blurb.] I use it in everything! In fact it is so great that I have never tried not using it.

 

[pillswoj]

Try searching for "product name" problems, issues or complaints. I find that gets me the critical reviews from people that used the product more then once. Or just find the product on Amazon.com and read the negative reviews first

 

[JimInNJ]

Those suggestions usually work great. But for obscure products, not so much.

I tested the Amazon idea on "tannin ft rouge" and saw no reviews. "Opti-Red" had one review: "if it's good enough for [insert prestigious Napa winery], it's good enough for me."

If I include "problems, issues or complaints" Google tends to ignore the obscure product and just give me results about airlines.

 

[olusteebus]

I am afraid decent reviews of such products may be hard to find. I think your best bet would be to ask for opinions on this forum.

 

[Boatboy24]

Those suggestions usually work great. But for obscure products, not so much.

I tested the Amazon idea on "tannin ft rouge" and saw no reviews. "Opti-Red" had one review: "if it's good enough for [insert prestigious Napa winery], it's good enough for me."

If I include "problems, issues or complaints" Google tends to ignore the obscure product and just give me results about airlines.

As @olusteebus said, not a ton of reviews on this kind of thing. MoreWine is probably the best place to look and even they don't have a ton.

 

[JimInNJ]

You're all very helpful, and I do appreciate that, but you are taking me a little too seriously. I was mostly going for the humor in the uselessness of many hobby forum posts.

Product X is great! [Quotes manufacturer's marketing blurb.] It is so great that I just ordered it for the first time yesterday. You should be using it in everything!

 

[BernardSmith]

Looks like we are fast heading towards a world captured in a Black Mirror episode (Now THAT is a good TV anthology) where you need to earn "likes" to borrow money, get a job, or buy a home (if you have too few "likes" then is there something wrong with you? ).. So it's less about the folk who "like" crap.. and far more about the people who beg you to "like" them and what they do... So ... um.. sad. and even worse - quite terrifying...

 

[tjgaul]

As a counterpoint I will just say that "I have used product X and it really sucked . . . I'll never buy it again!"

 

[Ajmassa]

You're all very helpful, and I do appreciate that, but you are taking me a little too seriously. I was mostly going for the humor in the uselessness of many hobby forum posts.

And now discussing the uselessness of many hobby forum posts within a useless hobby forum post. Hiyoooh!

Real Review——>I’ve used FT Rouge alot and will continue to use it for big reds. I prefer it since its specifically a fermentation tannin (notnsure how many others make this claim)- not like the other “add at any stage of the process” type tannins. I also use it with the suggested Lallyzyme EX enzyme. I think that combination is going to get the most of what those grapes have to give.
Not a fan of finishing tannins though since they can very easily change the whole damn structure. I don’t even view em as an option really and opt for oak spirals or staves for that stage.

 

[JimInNJ]

'General Chit-Chat' seems like an appropriately useless hobby forum. ;-)

At risk of being a total @$$, I would note that the above "Real Review" boils down to saying that you buy-into the logic of the marketing literature. It does not say that you have actually noticed any effect from using the product. The comments about finishing tannins however sound like they are based on experience, and are therefore more valuable to me.

I have not used FT Rouge. I did use some generic "powdered tannins for red wine" years ago, and liked the resulting wine. But I have no real idea if the powder actually made a difference, and if so, if it was for the better. Reading Scott Labs' literature leads me to exactly the same conclusion that you describe. However, the only studies I remember seeing in which FT Rouge or other fermentation tannins were compared to a control did not find any sensory differences at lower doses, and at higher doses there was an increase in both perceived body and harshness. So, until I get around to doing a side by side comparison of my own, I will pass on using fermentation tannins.

I have used Lallyzyme EX enzymes, and my (worthless) impression (with nothing to compare to) is that it did make a difference. I have seen plenty of literature that supports the use of macerating enzymes, and I like the idea of getting good extraction without resorting to cold soaks or extended maceration.

 

[JimInNJ]

As a counterpoint I will just say that "I have used product X and it really sucked . . . I'll never buy it again!"

Those usually fall into the pattern of "I used product X on one of my first batches and my wine really sucked . . . I'll never buy it again!" Which still does not tell us much about product X. LOL

 

[balatonwine]

1) If you are not doing so, try to use search engine shortcuts. The quote (") is the easiest to limit searches to specific topics.

Others:

https://www.lifewire.com/advanced-google-search-3482174

2) If you search for reviews, despite adding all the possible filers and shortcuts ("tannin ft rouge" +review), maybe there are simply no reviews for the product you are interested in. Not unlikely for rare products that few people use. I have spend years in customer service, and I can count on one hand the number of people that gave us real unbiased feedback. Reviewers are not common. Especially if they see no "monetary value" in taking time to do a complete and unbiased review. After all, youtube reviews are often trying to get advertisement money, so why would they make a review of a product video that only a few hundred people may look at? So despite the "promise" of web 2.0 where everyone can chime in, you get little more than "delighted" forums posts, or people who had miserable results and complain. But neither is an unbiased review, so not always helpful.

 

[JimInNJ]

I used to know all the tricks for AltaVista. But Google never much publicized theirs, and they keep changing things. The above link will be hugely helpful.

 

[Ajmassa]

Not sure how one could even have a negative opinion about it though. What makes it suck? I view this as not “buying into marketing literature logic”- but understanding the chemistry. If the maker says it is a “fermentation tannin” then that’s what it is. Why doubt them?
The characteristics chosen for FT Rouge are meant to be sacrificial during a ferment for color stability and also adding a layer to the overall texture, or feel, or whatever you wanna call it. Just like using oak chips in primary but with a more focused goal. It can only help.
This also makes it impossible to compare to fining tannins- or itself post AF. They are doing 2 completely different jobs- same rules as oak I believe. The time I used finishing tannin the end result had an overall ‘fakeness’ I felt. It just didn’t taste like something I wanted to taste in my wine.
Regarding enzymes here’s no need for a control batch. Your able to tell just from looking at the skins after fermentation and comparing to previous batches without it. Lallzyme ex breaks it down to mush. This allows the any added sacrificial tannin to really dig in. And it is the reason many people will forego enzymes if there’s plans to repurpose the skins for a kit, 2nd run, juice pail etc... I have not used other types of enzyme for comparison though.

 

[JimInNJ]

I've read that Lallzyme EX-V goes beyond mush.

Someday I want to split a batch three ways. In one use FT Rouge, in another use oak chips, and in the third use neither. Then after AF continue to keep them separate but treat identically. Do side by side tastings for a few years.

But first there are about a dozen yeasts I want to compare. And before that I need to grow the grapes. So it might take a while.

 

[Ajmassa]

That’s the only real way to learn the differences. Unfortunately running control and test batches is realistic for a lot of us. I gotta make em all count!

 

[JimInNJ]

I'm beginning to realize that I'm more interested in experimenting and learning than in actually making wine.

 

[Ajmassa]

I can relate. I enjoy learning more and more about different aspects. With the main goal to be constantly improving. (And expanding).
It should be a huge benefit to have direct knowledge of fermentation tannin differences or diff yeasts on same grapes.
For the record I’ve been using both oak chips and FT rouge with lallyzyme EX. And even opti-red on occasion. But without splitting up grapes I can’t really compare.

 

[JimInNJ]

In my experiment I would probably only bottle a few from each test case, and blend the rest back together. So not really much at risk, other than the increased O2 exposure from working with small batches.

 

[sour_grapes]

I have not done controlled experiments with splitting the same batch. (Actually, come to think of it, yes I have, but that was early in the game and not conclusive for other reasons.) However, I do think I can glean some info from my trials. I have made lots of batches without either fermentation tannins or finishing tannins. I have also made a lot of batches with added tannins. The batches with added tannins were oodles (that is a quantitative term) better than those without. Those with finishing tannins have had (perhaps unsurprisingly) more astringency and mouthfeel. I am sipping on a wine right now that feels like a commercial wine. I cannot say that about wines I made without.

Also, before adding to my wine, I have tasted "generic tannins" such as @JimInNJ referred to, and they were awful. I couldn't get them out of my mouth fast enough. Bitter, yucky, awful . When tasting FT Tannin Rouge or Tannin Riche Extra, they were (obviously very astringent), but pleasant, with coffee notes and cocoa and oak and chocolate.