Sharp, long after-taste

[Just-a-Guy]

OK, I know this is a nearly impossible thing, to diagnose a taste issue online. I've searched this forum extensively. I'm baffled.

This has happened twice, once with a DB and once with an apricot. The DB was made from a mix of frozen concentrates and frozen fruits, pretty much down the line, except I over-sulfited it (2 tsps of kmeta in the primary, I read it wrong). The apricot was a VH can, done pretty much down the line (recipe), but little (or no, I can't remember and my notes are silent) meta.

With both, the flavor was good well through primary fermentation. Somewhere along the way, it changed. It get this very sharp, acid-like taste, very off-putting. The fruit flavor is there, and good (until the after-taste hits, you think it's ok). The after-taste lingers, is sharp (strong) on the tongue and mouth, very unpleasant. There is a "bite" in the aroma of the wine, too, similar.

The DB has now sat for 3 months. I tried sweetening, I tried a copper pipe in the wine, I tried everything. Haven't checked it in about 3 weeks, but now the apricot is doing the same thing.

Any ideas?

TIA,

JAG

 

[Julie]

what was your acid in these wines?

 

[Just-a-Guy]

what was your acid in these wines?

Hi Julie,

Your help is always so much appreciated! I can't find my notes on the DB, it was last fall and I hadn't really gotten systematic about notes yet (I was just playing around with wine, after years of just doing beers). On the apricot, I put 2 1/2 tps acid blend in on the initial mix. It tasted fine at the end of the fermentation. This sharpness came later.

I don't even think I had any acids when I did the DB, although I'm not certain (I have a full complement now, can't recall when I acquired them all).

Does that help at all?

JAG

 

[Julie]

Take a glass and add like a 1/4 tsp of sugar and wine, warm is slightly to melt the sugar, let it cool and taste it and see if that didn't help.

 

[Just-a-Guy]

Take a glass and add like a 1/4 tsp of sugar and wine, warm is slightly to melt the sugar, let it cool and taste it and see if that didn't help.

I tried that, basically -- tried sweetening a glass of the DB. Didn't really help. Made it taste a little different, but this sharp after-taste continued. As I sit here, I actually have a burning sensation in my mouth from tasting the apricot yesterday... It is very strong, very unpleasant.

 

[JohnT]

It also sounds to me like your wine has acidified.

Try this,

Pour a small glass, then add a generous pinch of simple baking soda. Swirl for a minute or two and see if that helps the flavor. Of it does, then I would invest in an acid test kit (if you do not already have one) and raise your PH using k-bicarb.

 

[Julie]

without knowing your recipe and what you did, it will be difficult to figure out what is wrong.

 

[Turock]

This is the reason why many of us will not start a ferment until we check the PH and adjust as needed. It can be a mistake to just add acid without knowing the PH to start with. Many recipes say to add acid---but you have to take into account what the acid IS on the fruit and many recipes don't tell you this. Buying a PH meter, and testing EVERYTHING before beginning a ferment will avoid these problems of ending up with an unbalanced wine as far as acidity goes. If the beginning must is too acidic, use calcium carbonate to raise the PH.

 

[Just-a-Guy]

OK, thanks. Looks like I'm going to have to learn this PH business. JohnT, thanks, I will try to baking soda thing when I get home (which given the weather, could be pretty soon).

So, question - if it is indeed acidified, is there a way to fix it? Or is it basically a lost cause? Will time cure it, or is there an additive that will help?

Thanks!

JAG

 

[wineforfun]

JohnT is right on with the baking soda trick, give it a go.

With the DB, if you over sulfited it, that could be an issue. I have made numerous batches of DB and never had the issue you speak of. The only issue with DB has been some of the bitterness/bite from the lemon juice used but Dave has since cut the recipe in half(lemon juice-wise) and pretty much corrected that.

 

[winemaker_3352]

You can try to cold stabilize it first and see if that drops it low enough.

You can also add potassium bicarbonate to it to drop the acid as well in conjunction with cold stabilization.

 

[Just-a-Guy]

You can try to cold stabilize it first and see if that drops it low enough.

You can also add potassium bicarbonate to it to drop the acid as well in conjunction with cold stabilization.

Well, cold stabilizing certainly won't be a problem.... With this weather, all I will need to do is put it outside. I think I have some calcium carbonate, would that have the same effect?

 

[grapeman]

The calcium carbonate is for prefermentation treatment. You would need the potassium carbonate. You can also just cold stabilise without the k-carb.

 

[Just-a-Guy]

The calcium carbonate is for prefermentation treatment. You would need the potassium carbonate. You can also just cold stabilise without the k-carb.

Thanks, that's very helpful info.

Mark

 

[Julie]

Well here is my concern, without knowing what your acid level is, I don't think you should be trying to correct your acid. I am not 100% positive it is an acid issue. When I asked you to put some wine in a glass and sweeten it some, that should have softened the acid a little but you said it did not help. That is why I asked if you can post your recipe and your procedures.

 

[Just-a-Guy]

Well here is my concern, without knowing what your acid level is, I don't think you should be trying to correct your acid. I am not 100% positive it is an acid issue. When I asked you to put some wine in a glass and sweeten it some, that should have softened the acid a little but you said it did not help. That is why I asked if you can post your recipe and your procedures.

OK, thanks Julie.

This was two 96 oz VH cans of apricot. I put them one can in a 5 gal ss pot, added 1 gallon of spring water, and heated to about 140F, then poured into primary and added the other can, then topped up to about 5 gallons with spring water. (The fruit pieces in the VH cans added a fair part of that, loose in the must.) Added about 10 lbs of table sugar, and when temp was under 100, added 2 1/2 tps acid blend, 2 1/2 tsps pectic enzyme, and 1 tsp tannin. SG was about 1.090 - 1.100.

The next day, I pitched a 72B that didn't seem to be doing much in the starter (warm water for 20 mins). Waited four days, and no fermentation. In frustration, I pitched a 1118 (dry), and in hours had a boil.

A week later, it was 1.050 and tasted quite good.

Another four days and it was 1.008, and I racked to a secondary (carboy). Didn't quite get 5 gals. Topped up with about 2 cups E&J brandy, plus a small bottle BSG apricot flavoring. Boiled some bentonite in a cup or so of water and poured it in.

In a short time, I had an insane boil going in there (I thought fermentation was nearly over, but it went wild) - see here -

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_gM3LDRA08[/ame]

Boiled over (exploded) and made a mess. I cleaned it up, and it settled down after a few hours and continued to bubble for a few days. Wild.

Lots of fruit still in it, settled to a pile in the bottom - see pic below.

When I racked it off the "lees", I tasted it and got the sharp acid-like taste/ after-taste.

That's pretty much it. Thoughts?

TIA!

JAG

 

[Just-a-Guy]

Why not check TA? All this doesn't make sense--calcium carbonate or potassium carb without knowing pH or TA is a bad idea.

I don't have the ability to test it right now. I'll be ordering the stuff to do that ASAP, but won't likely have anything for a week or so (guessing). Probably going to get the Vinmetrica SC-300, as it seems to cover all the bases. In the meantime, I can just let this sit I suppose.

FWIW, I put a little baking soda in a small sample just now. Not sure, it may have helped a bit on the sharp taste. Just a bit. Hard to say, it also added a salty taste that was kind of unpleasant (I may have used more baking soda than needed, used maybe 1/8 tsp in a half cup or so.

 

[cintipam]

Hi Just a guy

Here is something you will need to remember. When you have young wine full of co2 you need to be very very very careful when adding anything powder like to the wine. The powder creates a point where the bubbles latch on and it will create a volcano every time. Doesn't matter if it's Kmeta, tartaric acid, anything that can provide a stable point for those bubbles to gather will cause it. This is why when stirring in primary it is best to start slow then increase speed.

Despite all that volcano action when you added bentonite I think your wine is still very young and holding lots of co2 in suspension. I know there is a name for that, but all I can think of is carbolic acid and I don't think that is right. Anyway, give it time. No knock to Daves Dragon Blood at all, but that stuff was created to be fast to drink. I don't know how he did it, but he got it right. Almost anything else you make will take a good 6 months to lose that sharp bite. At least that has been my experience with my wines, excepting one. That wine included bentonite in primary in a 20 gallon brute. Then I attempted battonage in secondary for a couple sessions before I noticed the leftover bentonite was stripping out color (and flavor also when tasted and compared to the half batch next to it that I had not done battonage on). I suspect the bentonite and stirring created nucleation points over and over during stirring thus that wine degassed very very very quickly compared to all my others. It was smooth from the first taste at 2 month point. I mean really smooth. I've thought about it a lot, decided on the bentonite theory, and that fits right in with your wine still holding onto co2 thus the sharp taste.

Records are priceless bits of info that helps folks figure out possible problems. After I've been doing this a while even I figure stuff out when I review my own notes.

And get that ph meter. Then you won't be guessing so much.

I may not be right, but its all I got to offer.

Pam in cinti

 

[Deezil]

Did you taste it at any other point during making it? I always encourage new winemakers to taste the wines several times during their creation so they can familiarize themselves with the tastes that go along with the changing smells.

Could have been the acid blend.
Could have been the apricot flavoring.

Either way, it's also 'green'/young, and that has a sharp almost granny smith kind of flavor, that subsides with time

And usually, it's recommended to share as much of your process as you can in the first post so we aren't all sitting around playing the guessing game

A lot of folks these days haven't been around long enough to remember, but Tom, a longtime member, always preached the "3 P's"

Patience, patience... can you guess the 3rd one? Lol

 

[Just-a-Guy]

Thanks, Pam! The nucleation idea came up elsewhere and makes sense (and is fascinating). I'm not sure how that would create the sharp taste - maybe you're just suggesting it's a general learning point? Point taken!

I'm happy to let it sit. Just bottled a pear wine that is only three months old and it's not bad, so I feel a little encouraged (especially after two glasses ). I'm learning, thanks to you guys.

JAG