WineXpert Smell WE

[Dean]

The sorbate is in fact used in a lot of commercial wines, and is used in such a small amount, that the palate cannot detect it in most, if not all, humans.

I think that you might be detecting young harshness if the wines are less than 8-9 months old. You might also be detecting some residual CO2, if your degassing regime was not rigorous enough. To test it do the "poof" test. Take your bottle of wine, place your thumb on the opening, and shake it up. Keeping your thumb tight ont the bottle, bring it up next to your ear and let your thumb off. If you get a "poof", you still have CO2 in your wine, which will contribute to off flavors and smells. Decant for 1-2 hours and try again. Is the smell still there?

edit: I should state that sorbate is used in a lot of commercial wines that do not undergo malolatic fermentation! This means few reds, and a lot of whites do get sorbate and lysozome to stop fermentation, as well as sterile filtration.Edited by: Dean

 

[Flaco]

Dean,


I am a mainly a red consumer, white commercial wines do scare me away because of smell. But I really do not get this smell with the commercial reds??? Is sorbate absolutely necessary?


I just finished reading the post Masta referred to in this post about "KT". This describes it to the "T", all my kits so far have been 10-15L kits and supposedly this is more prevalent in these kits.


My next kit is the MM All Juice Outback Shiraz, this should be better according to all the posts!!!


So do I or do I not add the Sorbate??????

 

[Wade E]

If it is femented dry(.996) then you do not need sorbate as long as you dont sweeten back at all.

 

[Mharris335]

Ok, we let the wine open up for two hours and we still got that same
smell. I guess if we dont need Sorbate then I will try and leave
that out next time.

 

[Mharris335]

I just read on another site that white wine will get better after six
months. Maybe I am drinking my whites to young. They have
been in the bottle for 2-3 months. Is that to young? Maybe
the smell will go away with age.

 

[masta]

I do believe your wine will improve over time and would almost guarantee it will. On the addition of sorbate to a dry wine kit you can choose to leave it out but please read through this info from an old post as it will provide more info on why it is included.




<DIV ="postcolor">This info is a quote from Tim Vandergrift Technical Services Manager, Winexpert Ltd.
<DIV ="postcolor">
<DIV ="postcolor">
<DIV ="postcolor">"Okay, having identified that you simply have a general sense of 'what's it there for', I'll let you in on the real truth behind sorbate.

We include it in the kit to prevent the growth of certain classes of bacteria and moulds. It also suppresses many different indigenous yeast strains. As a manufacturer, we're faced with the reality that many of the people who use our kits, especially for the first time, may not understand the importance of stringent sanitation protocols. We have twenty to forty cases a week where people fail to add yeast, so in order to obviate product failures due to the introduction of spoilage organisms in the user's hands, we specify the use of sorbate, and include it in the kit.

Sorbate is harmless, odourless, tasteless, and indetectable in the amounts we include in the kit. No one has the capacity to detect a couple of grams of sorbate dissolved in 23 litres of wine, and it has no effect on human health (well, almost none: it's used in treating certain types of gatritis caused by foreign bacteria in the gut).

This is from a monograph from one of our suppliers:


<DIV ="quotetop">QUOTE
<DIV ="quotemain">Potassium sorbate can restrain effectively the activity of mould, yeast and aerophile bacteria. Restrain growth and reproduction of the pernicious micro oraganism as pseudomonas, staphylococcus salmonella action to restrain growth is more powerful than killing. Meanwhile, it can not restrain useful microoraganim growth as Anaerobic spore-bearing bacilli, acidophil therefore to lengthen food store period and remain food original flavor. The preservative efficiency of sorbic acid (potassium sorbate) is 5-10 times sodium benzoate.

When dissolved in water, potassium sorbate ionizes to form sorbic acid which is effective against yeasts, molds, and select bacteria, and is widely used at 250 ppm to 1000 ppm levels in cheeses, dips, yogurt, sour cream, bread, cakes, pies and fillings, baking mixes, doughs, icings, fudges, toppings, beverages, margarine, salads, fermented and acidified vegetables, olives, fruit products, dressings, smoked and salted fish, confections and mayonnaise.

Sorbic Acid (also called chemically 2,4-Hexadienoic acid ), a white crystalline powder or granule form for dust free, is an unsaturated fatty acid which has two double bonds in conjugation that is, two double bonds separated only by one single bond. It and its salts (potassium sorbate, calcium sorbate ; its salts are used according to differences in solubility.) are used as preservatives in wide range of food products as well as in their packaging materials, since they are characterized by their broad effectiveness to inhibit molds, yeast, and many bacteria growth in food. Potassium sorbate, white to slightly yellow crystalline powder, is the potassium salt of sorbic acid and is much more soluble in water than the acid. Potassium sorbate will releases back sorbic acid if dissolved in water. It is effective up to pH 6.5 but effectiveness increases as the pH decreases. The lower the pH value of the product the lower amount of Sorbic Acid or Potassium Sorbate is needed for preservation. Its industrial applications include use in coating industry to improve gloss and in rubber industry.

Potassium sorbate is used as a a mold, bacterial and yeast inhibitor and as a fungistatic agent in foods. It is also used in cosmetics, pharmaceutical, tobacco and flavoring products. In wines, it is to prevent the secondary fermentation of residual sugar. It is used in coating to improve gloss. It is used as an intermediate to manufacture plasticizers and lubricants.. It is used as an additive in rubber industry to improve milling characteristics.

Chemical Formula: CH3CH:CHCH:CHCOOK
<DIV ="postcolor">

So, bottom line: yes, you can leave it out.

But again, why? I leave it out because I can use sanitation methods that civilians cannot access, and have a lab that I can do cultures in, and I can never remember to go get some when I bottle, one or three years after starting the kit. I'm not sure how leaving the product out would benefit you, but if you choose to do so, be sure to monitor the quality of the wine over time, to make sure it's still microbiologically stable.

 

[Mharris335]

If Sorbate is orderless, could it be from Packet 2
Metabisulphite? I know the smell is comming from one of those two packets.

 

[Dean]

It could very well be the k-meta smell. That is a highly odiferous compound! I do detect that smell for a time in most of my wines. I also always add the extra 1/4 tsp of k-meta at bottling time, since I age my wines a minimum of 8-9 months before drinking and mostly, age about 18 months on average, so I don't get those smells.

Flaco: You will find KT in most reds that are not top quality kits. Look for reds with Grape skins, 16+ liter kits, and Limited Edition/Restricted quantity kits.

So for kits that George carries, anything Mosti Mondial all juice, masters edition, and meglioli will work, as well as Winexpert Crushendo series kits will have the least detectable amounts of KT, if any. 12-18 months age on these kits is a minimum as well.

 

[Flaco]

Thanks Dean,


I have the MM All Juice Outback Shiraz, I will give this a try and see what results I get. I am keeping my fingers crossed, I enjoy making wine but would like to be able to drink a little more of what I make!!!

 

[chevyguy65]

Here's my 1.5 cents worth....


We bottled a WE Liebfraumilch in March.At that time we added an extra 1/4 tsp kmeta. we tried a bottle after 1 month and were disappointed with it.we then tried one about every 3-4 weeks after that and it still had a strong "KT" taste. But,we just tried one this last weekend and it was a totally different wine. the KT taste was gone and the wine seemed to have alittle more body to it!!! A complete turn around for a wine we almost gave up on.


After that I'm convinced that 4-6 months aging is the minimum for anything but a "mist" type kit.

 

[docbee]

I too have noticed this smell, which to me is a very yeasty vegatal type of smell/taste. It does not have a sulphur type of component and I have noticed it even before adding the K meta or sorbate into my wines. I cannot say if it is with the Mosti All juice products because when I have done them I just assumed it was there and didn't pay attention. Hopefully will be bottling them soon asI recover from surgery and then will say what I find.


The good news is that this smell/taste does disappear as the wine bottle ages. Since my first 2 wines had it I have started bulk aging a minimum of 3 months and don't notice near as much when it is time to bottle. Also the decanting does make a big difference. Also even for a white wine you need to "wait" (eww the dreaded W word) at least 5-6 months before you taste your wine if you do notice this smell. I recall reading somewhere that not everybody is able to notice this smell/taste. Since I can really notice it I do not try my wines until 6 months now. At that point there maybe a slight hint of it, but it completely disappears with decanting for 1 hour.Edited by: docbee

 

[Mharris335]

I too have noticed this smell, which to me is a very
yeasty vegatal type of smell/taste. It does not have a sulphur
type of component and I have noticed it even before adding the K meta
or sorbate into my wines. I cannot say if it is with the Mosti
All juice products because when I have done them I just assumed it was
there and didn't pay attention. Hopefully will be bottling them soon asI recover from surgery and then will say what I find.


The good news is that this smell/taste does disappear as the wine
bottle ages. Since my first 2 wines had it I have started bulk
aging a minimum of 3 months and don't notice near as much when it is
time to bottle. Also the decanting does make a big
difference. Also even for a white wine you need to "wait"
(eww the dreaded W word) at least 5-6 months before you taste your wine
if you do notice this smell. I recall reading somewhere that not
everybody is able to notice this smell/taste. Since I can really
notice it I do not try my wines until 6 months now. At that point
there maybe a slight hint of it, but it completely disappears with
decanting for 1 hour.

 

[Mharris335]

Sorry, I forgot to post anything. lol

I am glad someone else besides me noticed the smell. I will try
and decant the next bottle to see if this helps. I also think my
other problem is not getting all the Co2 out of the wine good
enough. My wife keeps telling me that she gets a fizzy taste off
the wine. Maybe thats why I notice the smell more then some.

 

[docbee]

Degassing is a whole 'nother topic, butI certainly don't think what we have been talking about here is related to that. I certainly don't smell/taste my sodas when experiencing this "flavor". The one wine that I did that I didn't do a good job of degassing has a completely different taste and improved right away with vigorous pouring into decanter.


My last wine, a Mosti All juice, would not degas with stirring or vacuum no matter how much I did. If i picked up the carboy and spun it quickly then it would gas out some. Go figure??? That one is going to bulk age for at least 6 months.

 

[PeterZ]

I, too, am sensative to this smell. SWMBO doesn't seem to notice it in the RJS Merlot I made, but I do. OTOH, my Mosti AllJuice Amarone does not have it and smells great for a wine at the degassing stage, but she found something less than wonderful in the nose (it tastes great).

Those of you who smell the vegetal KT smell - does cilantro taste like soap to you? Does broccoli smell like "dirty feet"? These are known and well established genetic quirks - I have the cilantro one, and SWMBO has the broccoli one. I wonder if this isn't another.

Interestingly, the IM kit I made for my daughter SWPMO (She Who Paul - her BF - Must Obey) showed little of the smell, and the Mosti AllJuice shows none. I wonder if it is connected to the warming of the juice during vacuum distillation/concentration, and prevalent in reds? The IM was Strawberry White Merlot. In thinking back, I don't recall it in any of the fruit wines I made in the 80's, nor in the red Zin I made from whole grapes.

I may try a Mosti ~10L red kit just to see if the smell is there for me. For the real wines, however, I think I will stick to 23L of juice. The Amarone is just too good too soon to be denied.

 

[docbee]

I've noticed it in my white wines, which is whatI usually make.


I cant say about cilantro because SWMBO buys all kinds of "herby" soaps so all the herbs that I love smell like soap. Brocolli on the other hand have never liked the smell but enjoy eating it. the pot that it was cooked in always reeks to me.

 

[BrianD]

A proper decanter is also needed as they are designed to allow maximum exposure of the wine in the vessel to the air. I also give my wine at least a few swirls to help aerate it before drinking and this helps the reds wine's temperature come up to room temp from cellar temp. My decanters will hold a 1.5 L bottle and still be at the proper level and since I don't finish that much in one day I routinely cover the decanter and finish the following day. Any longer than 24 hrs oxidation starts to occur and it starts to go downhill. Here is a picture of a decanter (mine are similar). I was lucky enough to find a deal at a discount store and bought 4 for around $40.00 and they came with a set of 6 glasses each.

I just picked up a decanter in this basic design at Ross, a discount realtor (like Marshall's and several other similar stores). It came with 4 stemless wine glasses. $9.99 for the set, made in Mexico.

I didn't even know such a thing existed before reading this thread. Thanks.


Brian