some newb questions

[leafandlightning]

Just a few simple questions... first, what is the biggest difference between "actual" wine yeast and say, fleischmanns bread yeast( what I used for the first few gallons I tried this fall)... people have told me that it makes the wine taste or smell " bready" or "yeasty", but I haven't noticed any of those kind of flavors or odors after I let the wines clear up...others have said that it makes a weak wine, but these first few batches have been anything but weak... just wondering what I should look forward to if I try wine yeast next year...

second, just because this doesn't make any sense to me, why when everything else is the same, would chopping pears into 1/2-3/4" chunks result in a more strongly flavored wine than pureeing them... I made 2 batches of pear wine... in one I chopped the fruit, like the recipe I found had said, but in the other I pureed them in the blender, thinking that would give me a stronger pear flavor... the results baffled me a tad.. when I tasted the bit( about a glass worth) of each that wouldn't fit in the bottles, the pureed had a decent amount of pear flavor, but the flavor of the chopped pear one blew it out of the water... I just can't wrap my head around how the chopped pears gave the wine more flavor than the pureed ones...

lastly, is there any sort of guidebook or reference for identifying wild grape species...

 

[robie]

Bread yeast .vs. wine yeast?

Take a look at this wine/yeast pairing manual:
https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://www.morewinemaking.com/public/pdf/wyeastpair.pdf

Pick one wine and read on of what the different yeast strains have to offer. When you consider the differences between what two real wine yeasts make for a particular wine, it becomes pretty clear how much affect yeast has in the final result.

Here's what I recommend - take a batch of wine and split it into two smaller batches, ferment one with bread yeast, one with a true wine yeast, which is right for your particular wine. See if you can tell the difference. I am sure you wil be able to taste the difference.

 

[winemaker_3352]

Welcome aboard!!!

There is a difference in the yeasts. Wine yeasts are manufactured to bring out certain flavors, ferment under certain conditions, some for red some for whites some for blushes. Some even metabolize acid.

They are tailored for making wine.

Pureeing the pears can impart off flavors - too much from the skins, etc. Plus it makes it harder to clear.

 

[leafandlightning]

so, let me see if I understand this correctly... the main advantage of wine yeasts, and the reason for their variety, is mainly to get certain by-products/flavors when making specific types of wine... so is there a reason to use them (other than experimentation) when your goal isn't to make a version of a pre-existing wine type?

 

[robie]

The main reason for "wine" yeast is for making wine, not bread. You are looking for an excuse to stay with your bread yeast. Just don't know why. You don't need an excuse, use your bread yeast. It's your wine.

 

[winemaker_3352]

The main reason for "wine" yeast is for making wine, not bread. You are looking for an excuse to stay with your bread yeast. Just don't know why. You don't need an excuse, use your bread yeast. It's your wine.

I agree. Everybody in this forum does things differently, and I always say "To each their own".

Do you have to use wine yeast - no.

I just simply stated the differences between the yeast.

 

[leafandlightning]

easy folks, easy... not trying to pick a fight, or "looking for an excuse to stay with bread yeast", just trying to learn... I already know that bread yeast (or at least fleischmanns bread machine yeast, which is what I used) makes, at least to my admittedly unsophisticated pallet, a pretty decent wine, and I do fully intend to use it in the future... the thing I am trying to find out is essentially how it compares to actual wine yeasts, not how wine yeasts compare to other wine yeasts, and in layman's terms, not wine talk(which I don't know yet, still very new at this)... and what I gathered from the info you provided was that certain wine yeasts are best for specific types of wine... but I don't intend to make Cabernets or Chardonnays, or really even attempt to make something close(I have and intend to just use native, wild grapes from my area),... so I was just curious what advantages the some of the wine yeasts might offer if you don't have a specific type of wine in mind... sorry if it came out wrong...

 

[robie]

A better approach might have been for you to ask which yeast strains tend to do a good job on wild grapes.

If you look again at the wine/yeast pairing guide I wrote about, you will see that a specific yeast strain tends (but not always) to provide the same characteristic, no matter which wine it is used with. Some yeast tend to cut down on herbaceous and vegetative off flavors in wine. If I were going to make wine from wild grapes, which tend to be musky in some areas, that is a yeast characteristic/trait I would be excited about.

Do the wild grapes tend to make thin wine? If so, look for a yeast that tends to add mouth-feel.

Some yeast can ferment out to higher levels of alcohol. This may not be a factor for most wild grapes.

I could go on, but I think you get the idea. Maybe you can google "yeast for wild grapes". I don't know if it will turn anything up, but you can try.

What would help is if you know the name of the wild grapes, so you can look them up individually. I know, if you are like most of us, we know we like them, we just don't have a clue as to their proper name.

All wild grapes already have yeast on them. This is also true of cultivated grape. The very air inside your home has lots of native yeast floating around. If you want to be daring, although I don't recommend you do it on a large scale the first time, you can let the grape must set and it WILL start fermenting on its own. Actually, some very large scale wineries do not add yeast, they just let nature take its course. This is common for Malbec wineries in Argentina and some in Australia.

It might be a fun experiment on a small scale.

 

[wjdonahue]

To go back to your question.

Wine yeasts that you can by (there are actually hundreds of them from Lalvin, DSM Oneology, etc.) are of the species cervasea sacchromyces, and sometime bayanus. These yeasts are cultured from the actual yeasts found naturally occuring on the grape skin (that frosy covering.) These yeasts are native to grapes. Most new winemakers are under the impression that the yeast and the sugar in the wine only make alcohol. That is far from the case. Studies done at UC Davis and other European labs have shown that there are over 14000 chemical reactions occuring during and after formation of the wine. Because of this, yeasts produce esters, other alcohols, aldehydes, etc. that actually flavor the wine. All yeasts also produce volatile alcohol, sulfide compounds, etc. that are not good tasting. Many of the flavors, aromas, etc. that the yeast produces are NOT in the original jiuce from the grape, both the good flavors and aromas and the bad ones. The strains that are available for producing wine have been cultured without a lot of the undesirable native yeasts that also grow on the grape skin. As was stated earlier, some of the wine yeasts produce certain compounds in greater proportions than others, so you can also use different yeasts and yeast blends to produce "boutique" wines. The best yeast is the one that grows on the particular grape, but how do you get rid of the other bad wild yeasts that also grow there? You let someone else do it for you.....that is what you are buying with wine yeast.
Bread yeasts have been crossed and bred for a completely different purpose...to make bread rise as quickly as possible. They are bred to work very quickly, produce the maximum amount of CO2 in the shortest period of time, and don't have to worry about what they are doing to the flavor of the flour (which absorbs the flavors and are driven out during the baking process or denatured by heat.)
You can use bread yeast and make alcohol, and some components of the wine, but they will work quickly, not letting the other chemical reactions take place. What you have is alcoholic grape juice, not wine.
I can't see why you would ever buy bread yeast to use instead of wine yeast. The cost of a dehydrated wine yeast is virtually the same as the cost of a packet of the bread yeast in the grocery store. Do what you want to, and it might taste good to you (laughing ..MD 20/20 and Ripple tasted good to me in college), but don't confuse what you are making with the bread yeast with what you could be making, for the same cost. Hell, don't even bother to buy a fermentation lock, just use a balloon.
I am on my high horse about this because I lecture to cellarmasters, wineries, extensions, etc. on yeast...What it is, what it does, selection of yeast.........etc. I also consult with wineries on selection of yeasts for their wines based on terrior, desired style, etc. If you give me your e-mail address, I'll be happy to send you the Power Point for the yeast lecture.....very easy to understand.....which might explain to you why you have gotten the response here, from winemakers, that you have.

Alll The best

Bill

[email protected]

 

[Giovannino]

I of cannot contribute an answer but I really like the fact that one is willing to experiment and be adventurous.

On the other hand, pay attention to the ones with experience.

Thanks for the original question.

 

[Julie]

I will admint that I did not read each post in detail. Sorry guys those posts were just too long for me.

To give you a simple answer, you have more control over wine yeast in making wine over bread yeast in making wine. Bread yeast has more of a lower alcohol tolerance. You can get your desired alcohol level but if is iffy. I guess the best answer is, you have more control on how your wine will come out.

 

[robie]

Very good post, wjdonahue, thanks.
What it comes down to:

Bread yeast are designed to create maximum CO2, while alcohol and other chemicals/flavors are3 only side by-products.
Wine yeast are designed to produce alcohol and other chemicals/flavors, CO2 being a by-product.

That's all a pretty good reason to use, other than in experimentation, wine yeast for wine and bread yeast for bread.

 

[Rocky]

Geez, I was wondering if I could make bread from wine yeast but now I am afraid to ask!

I like this post. I think it was a good discussion and I support experimentation and "field expediency."

BTW, Leafandlightning, you weren't in the 25th ID by any chance, were you?

 

[leafandlightning]

BTW, Leafandlightning, you weren't in the 25th ID by any chance, were you?

????... not sure what you mean, so I guess not...

 

[Rocky]

I thought maybe you were in the 25th Infantry Division. See attached link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:25th_Infantry_Division_SSI.svg

 

[leafandlightning]

I thought maybe you were in the 25th Infantry Division. See attached link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:25th_Infantry_Division_SSI.svg

Ahh.. I see why... nope, Ive never been in the military...
leaf and lightning is a sort of martial arts style/philosophy a buddy of mine and I came up with back in high school... I came up with this symbol for it

and have been using it as my personal insignia/avatar ever since