Sourdough Starters

[montanaWineGuy]

Yeah... but I doubt that your bread will ever really develop a true SF sourdough flavor. Terroir is really critical - I am not being ironic. The particular variety of bacteria and yeast that makes up SF sourdough does not exist anywhere except in SF and by all accounts, even if you were to capture a critical mass of the leavening agents there and bring them home, the flour, the water, the food you feed the sourdough, all will slowly , slowly transform the character of the starter into one that more resembles other more local starters. That is the nature of the beast..

I'm going to get damn awfully close. My next loaf will have the addition of some salt in the water to flavor the steam, and I'm expecting something wonderful.

 

[ibglowin]

Looks good enough for me!

 

[montanaWineGuy]

I made a pizza the other day, and further explored my wet sticky dough theory. This dough was so sticky that if I poked it, I had dough sticking to my finger tip. Even after sprinkling it with flour, several hours later it was wet and sticky to the touch.

The pizza dough came out great. I mean really really great.

In High School friends and I would go to our favorite pizza shop and indulge, in the best Sour Dough pizza ever created. This was my goal. I'm there!

 

[montanaWineGuy]

Okay. Jury is back. Another loaf of Sourdough bread, in Dutch Oven, super wet sticky dough, above Trivet, salted steam added to DO before going into oven, and YES, YES!!!!!!! --- San Francisco Sourdough Bread.

Stand Back, don't anybody move.... Mine, all mine, all all mine...

 

[montanaWineGuy]

And it just gets better and better. Monday has become bread baking day.

The wet sticky dough makes bread that stays fresh tasting all week long.

 

[JohnT]

So, Did you follow the recipe to the letter (as far as ingredients)?
Did you do a 6 cup batch of dough?

What kind of yeast did you use for your starter?
Did you let the dough rise overnight? In the Fridge or on the counter?

A detailed step by step on exactly how you got to SF SD Bread would be much appreciated!

 

[montanaWineGuy]

So, Did you follow the recipe to the letter (as far as ingredients)?
Did you do a 6 cup batch of dough?

What kind of yeast did you use for your starter?
Did you let the dough rise overnight? In the Fridge or on the counter?

A detailed step by step on exactly how you got to SF SD Bread would be much appreciated!

No more recipe for me. And my starter is now free wheeling. I add all purpose flour, bread flour, wheat flour, etc. Sometimes I put beer or wine or water in depending on what I have handy or is within reach. IMO, the break thru was the very very wet sticky dough and leaving it on the counter, covered for 8 hours is enough. Bottom line, experiment and have fun with it.

 

[BernardSmith]

sourdough starter - a question about yeast and enzymes

I don't want to hijack this thread but something has been niggling me for the last few weeks. I make sourdough (although I am terrible at husbanding the starter and have to restart the starter very often - but that , as they say , is another story), and here's my question:
Wild yeasts are used to eat the sugars in the flour... but brewers need to convert the carbohydrates in the grain to fermentable sugars BEFORE any yeast can ferment the sugars. How is it that in bread making (sourdough or regular) the yeast has no problem dealing with the flour without any help from the baker but the brewer needs to initiate enzymatic reactions (mashing) to open up the crushed grain for the yeast?

 

[montanaWineGuy]

I can't help in answering your q, but I will add. I'm using my starter once a week and leave it in the fridge between uses. The one time I didn't get to it, I had to toss a cups worth and it was good to go in a couple of days.

I did read, but didn't believe it, but the starter does need to sit out the night before use. Big air pockets form in the bread when this is done. Lots of little things make a difference. I've been slowly experimenting and finding what works best for me, and my best expectations have been exceeded.

 

[BernardSmith]

I can't help in answering your q, but I will add. I'm using my starter once a week and leave it in the fridge between uses. The one time I didn't get to it, I had to toss a cups worth and it was good to go in a couple of days.

I did read, but didn't believe it, but the starter does need to sit out the night before use. Big air pockets form in the bread when this is done. Lots of little things make a difference. I've been slowly experimenting and finding what works best for me, and my best expectations have been exceeded.

OK... but "sitting out" may simply mean that the internal temperature of the starter rises to ambient room temp and that may simply make the yeast more active (and the bacteria)... (they would be sluggish (at best) at low temperatures which is why they do better at about 70F

 

[montanaWineGuy]

OK... but "sitting out" may simply mean that the internal temperature of the starter rises to ambient room temp and that may simply make the yeast more active (and the bacteria)... (they would be sluggish (at best) at low temperatures which is why they do better at about 70F

A likely explanation. But since the cold starter mixed/kneaded then sits out in the open at room temp for 8 hours or so, plenty of time for the starter to do its thing, once being cold not a factor....

All I know is it works, and its what I now do.

 

[ceeaton]

I don't want to hijack this thread but something has been niggling me for the last few weeks. I make sourdough (although I am terrible at husbanding the starter and have to restart the starter very often - but that , as they say , is another story), and here's my question:
Wild yeasts are used to eat the sugars in the flour... but brewers need to convert the carbohydrates in the grain to fermentable sugars BEFORE any yeast can ferment the sugars. How is it that in bread making (sourdough or regular) the yeast has no problem dealing with the flour without any help from the baker but the brewer needs to initiate enzymatic reactions (mashing) to open up the crushed grain for the yeast?

For breads to rise you only need the yeast to convert some of the carbohydrates in flour to CO2/flavors to help the bread rise. It is not a complete degradation of the starches into other chemicals, ie. starch is left in the finished product in significant quantity. As long as some glutens (protein in nature) are formed during kneeding, a structure will be produced that can capture some of the CO2 to help aid in the bread rising.

In beer fermentation you need to convert the starches into a form that can be ALMOST completely digested into alcohol/flavor (yeast by products)/CO2 by the yeast. Too many left over starches and proteins will leave a haze (ex. wheat beers). Some higher sugars (dextrins) are not broken down (at least in ales) during fermentation and augment the body of the finished product. Brewer's yeast can attack some starches, but it isn't a direct food source, unless no other "preferred" sources are available.

This is an incredibly simplistic broad view, but it would take several thousand pages to completely illustrate what goes on. Kudos to the biochemists in our midst.

 

[BernardSmith]

For breads to rise you only need the yeast to convert some of the carbohydrates in flour to CO2/flavors to help the bread rise. It is not a complete degradation of the starches into other chemicals, ie. starch is left in the finished product in significant quantity. As long as some glutens (protein in nature) are formed during kneeding, a structure will be produced that can capture some of the CO2 to help aid in the bread rising.

In beer fermentation you need to convert the starches into a form that can be ALMOST completely digested into alcohol/flavor (yeast by products)/CO2 by the yeast. Too many left over starches and proteins will leave a haze (ex. wheat beers). Some higher sugars (dextrins) are not broken down (at least in ales) during fermentation and augment the body of the finished product. Brewer's yeast can attack some starches, but it isn't a direct food source, unless no other "preferred" sources are available.

This is an incredibly simplistic broad view, but it would take several thousand pages to completely illustrate what goes on. Kudos to the biochemists in our midst.

Aha! And that might explain why you need to constantly feed the starter when making sourdough - the available sugars in the flour are very limited ... Thanks Craig... That was really very helpful.

 

[montanaWineGuy]

Aha! And that might explain why you need to constantly feed the starter when making sourdough - the available sugars in the flour are very limited ... Thanks Craig... That was really very helpful.

So add a bit of sugar to extend the time between uses?

 

[BernardSmith]

But you want the yeast and bacteria to work on the flour. Wouldn't adding sugar change the flavor profile from a lactic heavy fermentation to a more yeast like one and one where the yeast are working on sucrose or fructose and not on the sugars from the grains ?

 

[montanaWineGuy]

Probably. Earlier today I added a 1/3 flour + 1/3 water. Seems to have given it a better look.