Starting my first Dragon Blood, questions will go here...

[wineforfun]

Time is one ingredient I have plenty of. No problem here with letting things sit longer.

Off topic question for you if you don't mind.... Without a clearing agent, roughly how long does it take a wine to clear, and how can you tell? Do you just pour it and if it looks right then it is? Is there a certain time frame where all wine clears? Is there a paper towel test or something? This Dragon Blood is the second thing I've ever made; the kit told me when to do what the first time.

Thanks for the info (and sorry I ask so many questions)

-Zintrigue

There is no "all wines will clear in X amount of time". Type of wine, type of fruit, additions used, ie: pectic, etc.

So, if you want it clear "now", I would propose to either a) hit it with another dose of Sparklloid according to proper instructions or b) use SuperKleer. My option will always be SuperKleer as it compacts the lees much better than Sparklloid and doesn't require boiling, etc.
Option c would be to let it sit and clear on its own but this could take months.

 

[Bodenski]

And as a final note, the best resource I know for issues with clearing wine is from Jack Keller's website.

http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/finishin.asp

As he states, finishing your wine does not mean drinking it It has several details about clearing wine.

 

[Scooter68]

Yes - Keller has a number of excellent articles about wine making.

His recipes are noted to be light on flavor (Low fruit quantity) and high on Alcohol. I have no problem with the higher alcohol numbers but I have opted to go with at least 50% more fruit in recipes I used from his site. I also have found that sometimes trying to do a wine with all fruit and no water added, can introduce other issues as well as waste fruit. Example. Just finished a bottle from my first batch of Blueberry wine in from July of 2015. Made with 4 1/2 lbs of home grown blueberries. EXCELLENT flavor. Likewise I have another batch of blueberry wine aging now with 8 lbs of blueberries and the only water added was that used to dissolve sugar. That batch has been giving me fits with the acidity of it. So a good wine can be made with a widely varied quantity of fruit and more depends on the quality of the fruit used than it does on the exact lbs/gallon selection.

 

[Bodenski]

I've only made two of his recipes so far, a semi-sec blueberry and a blackberry port. Both seem alright to me. (6 lbs of blackberries in the port, so not light on fruit!) He has won a fair number of awards so apparently judges like his recipes.

I don't have anything yet I'm willing to give a bottle away for to get judged. I like almost everything I've made so far. (only one mis-fire that I hope gets better with time.) Now I'm thinking about getting into more mead making. I don't want to use only store-bought honey, but it's the wrong time of year to get the local stuff. . .

 

[Scooter68]

6 lbs of Blackberries sounds about as high as I would go - with our wild blackberries. And that's part of the issue here when people toss out numbers as if they are golden guidelines. I've had a few big juicy store bought berries but their flavor wasn't 1/4 as intense as one of my much much smaller wild berries. Like wise some fruits like elderberries - folks remark about how they did a 2 lb batch and were afraid or leery of using more. With Peaches I think I've hit nirvana with my 3rd batch that was made from fruit stand 'overripe' peaches with a lot of softspots in them. 7 lbs per gallon in that batch (That's 7 lbs with stones and bad spots removed). Oh, and I cheated - I wanted a reddish hue to the wine so I added 20 dark sweet cherries to the must. You won't taste their flavor but it did color up the wine with a natural color. (Using red food dye would get me shot by my wife )

 

[Zintrigue]

There are several variables involved. The most important one I've seen is "how well did you degas the wine?" A poorly degassed wine doesn't clear much at all! And it's easier degassing a wine at 74 degrees than one at 65 degrees.

As to tell how well it's cleared, I store my 1-gallon jugs that are bulk-aging in the basement. I keep the lights off and shine my iPhone flashlight from the back of each one to see what it looks like. The clearer that light looks to me the clearer the wine (probably) is. It doesn't work with a deep red wine, but with the country wines that has been my best indicator. I have't made anything in a bigger carboy except cider from apple juice, and that didn't need to clear as much. I still think a flashlight shining through a bigger carboy will work, but would probably take a stronger one than the one on your phone!

Very useful info. I'll try it before bed, just for kicks. I don't expect it to be cleared yet, but I want to see the process. Thanks for the tip

 

[Zintrigue]

And as a final note, the best resource I know for issues with clearing wine is from Jack Keller's website.

http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/finishin.asp

As he states, finishing your wine does not mean drinking it It has several details about clearing wine.

Yes - Keller has a number of excellent articles about wine making.

His recipes are noted to be light on flavor (Low fruit quantity) and high on Alcohol. I have no problem with the higher alcohol numbers but I have opted to go with at least 50% more fruit in recipes I used from his site. I also have found that sometimes trying to do a wine with all fruit and no water added, can introduce other issues as well as waste fruit. Example. Just finished a bottle from my first batch of Blueberry wine in from July of 2015. Made with 4 1/2 lbs of home grown blueberries. EXCELLENT flavor. Likewise I have another batch of blueberry wine aging now with 8 lbs of blueberries and the only water added was that used to dissolve sugar. That batch has been giving me fits with the acidity of it. So a good wine can be made with a widely varied quantity of fruit and more depends on the quality of the fruit used than it does on the exact lbs/gallon selection.

Oh my gosh, hours of reading right there. You guys have no idea what you just did to me.

Blueberry wine sounds fantastic. When my bushes mature I might have to try that - looks like I'll be reading the Jack Keller bible when I do.

 

[Scooter68]

Well it is winter time - a great time for sitting by the fire and reading and digesting all that info. AND a great idea for you - go purchase commercial wine to investigate while you read. Pick up one that is different like a port or specialty fruit wine and you can let your taste buds feed you back some info on what they like or don't like in a wine.

I've said this before - and I think it bears repeating. Professional wine growers know that each season is different and produces different fruit qualities and quantities. Same thing with non-grape wines, the different varieties, sources and ripeness of fruit will dramatically affect the end outcome. 8 pounds of an fruit not fully ripened or less flavorful may be no better or even lower flavor than 5 pounds of a fully ripe and bursting with flavor fruit or even a wild version of a fruit.

That's what makes this hobby so different than say working with metal or wood, there is not a true consistency to the fruit we use, even if it comes from a can from a reliable source, they all say in the fine print that seasonal differences are to be expected.

Enjoy and have fun - believe me the flavors and fun of having your own wine is well worth the wait.

 

[wineforfun]

I've only made two of his recipes so far, a semi-sec blueberry and a blackberry port. Both seem alright to me. (6 lbs of blackberries in the port, so not light on fruit!) He has won a fair number of awards so apparently judges like his recipes.

6lbs. isn't light but you were making a port style wine, so that is why the amount of fruit.

In general, if you look at most of his fruit wines, they are light on the amount of fruit. As a rule of thumb, most of us either double or 1.5x the amount he calls for. His recipes are fine, just light on fruit.
Where he calls for say 3lbs. of strawberries for 1 gal. I would use 5-6lbs., especially since strawberry is a light flavor to begin with.
His blueberry he calls for 2 1/2lbs. per gallon. I use 4-4 1/2lbs., per gallon.

 

[Bodenski]

I will say that he does mention that the fruit has to be at peak to use those amounts. Store-bought fruit will (in general) never have the same taste profile or sugar content of something picked at it's peak. He must be getting some stellar fruit down there in Texas!

 

[Scooter68]

I'll bet he's getting it from fruit stands or imports that don't meet store standards.

I'm going to visit any fruit stands I can find in the future. Overripe fruit is perfect. It's ready to go to wine, just needs some 'formatting' to get it there, along with a little K-meta to stop the wild yeasts. My Peach (7lbs/gallon) from last summer should be ready to bottle soon, another month? That will put it right at about 9 months from start to bottle and then another 2-3 months in the bottle before drinking. Key is to let it be completely clear before bottling and it's about there.

 

[Zintrigue]

New question for you guys if you don't mind.

So I'll probably be bottling this stuff on Wednesday - kind of thrilled about that. When I racked it a few days ago it was really tart. Very off putting.

Is this normal for dragon blood, will it mellow out within the week since I sweetened? What does the tartness indicate that I did wrong? Did I add too much sugar in the beginning? Was there anything I could have done to mellow it out?

Thanks, ladies and gents

-Zin

 

[Casper137]

I find 1 tablespooon per 750 ml bottle is more then sufficient after fermenting dry.

 

[Zintrigue]

There's an odd bitterness to my first batch of dragon blood. It's not like tannins, it's a chemical sort of sting (to me, anyway) that my husband doesn't notice. A lingering afterburn.

Is this associated with too much of any one additive?

Thanks,
Zintrigue

 

[Ajmassa]

Iv been curious how your DB was coming out. Wish I could help but I've yet to make a batch. Is the "bitterness" the same as the lingering afterburner? Or is that 2 separate things?
It's also tough without knowing details. That afterburn sounds like a good thing I initially thought. Adding to the profile. And maybe what you deem "chemical" tasting will mellow out over the next couple weeks. And turn into a "backend long dry finish"?? (All total speculation without a even tasting DB let alone making)
Is it still in your jug or bottled? So tough online sometimes. Why don't you just Send me some? Lol. I really have no business making any comment, though maybe pulling out more info may help someone else know what's what with this DB.

 

[Zintrigue]

Yes, AJ, the bitterness is the same as the lingering afterburn (more like after-sting?).

I'm out of Dragon Blood now, or else I'd send you some! (um, what state? Haha)

I did notice that in just a few weeks of aging that the sugars mellowed out, making the drink a bit more dry, but still very fruity. No one else seems to taste the odd bitterness, but it's enough to make me wrinkle my nose after each sip. Ruins it for me. I was hoping a more experienced winemaker would pop in and be like "oh, yeah! The lingering chemical taste is because of too much __________ during your secondary fermentation! Try adding less and maybe balancing it out with some _________!"

Then I could be like (everyone put on your British accents): Jolly good, ole' chap! Thanks for the info! Had my knickers in a right twist, I did!

Maybe I'll just have to see how my second batch comes out. It's clearing now, heh

-Zintrigue

 

[bionerd]

I haven't made Dragon's blood yet (still a newbie) but a while ago we made a gallon of raspberry wine - they were on sale at costco. After the wine finished clearing it was super tart, but after it sat in the bottles for a few months, it started to mellow out. Try aging it for different periods of time to see if just sitting there will help the chemical taste improve. We also found that the flavor improved if we aerated the wine prior to drinking, so maybe something to try?

 

[Zintrigue]

Bionerd - I'll try both of those things, great suggestions. Thank you

 

[bionerd]

Happy to offer advice! I'm not sure if you are doing this now, but it can help to have a "lab notebook" of sorts to record everything that you do and try out different things. It definitely helps troubleshoot since you can change one thing at a time and see how you like the product. You can also record your tasting dates to find that "sweet spot" of aging. We have a little notebook where we have the dates for everything we do and all the calculations (helps to find math errors lol)

I might be a bit more OCD in terms of record keeping, but 9+ years of biology research does that to a person hahaha

 

[wineforfun]

There's an odd bitterness to my first batch of dragon blood. It's not like tannins, it's a chemical sort of sting (to me, anyway) that my husband doesn't notice. A lingering afterburn.

Is this associated with too much of any one additive?

Thanks,
Zintrigue

It sounds like it could be some of the lemon juice. I know for us it gives a little bit of a burn and can have a "different" taste until you figure out what it is.

Only other thing I can think of is if it isn't degassed enough and that is what you are experiencing.