Starting Small with Muscadines, Lots of Questions

[echoloc8]

Hi everyone, one of my very first posts here, and it's gonna be a big 'un.

I stand to take over my father-in-law's tree farm in Tarrant, Alabama (a bit north of Birmingham) sometime in the distant future, and I have plans to plant it eventually with Muscadines of different kinds, and with Norton. Norton is way off in the future, because I know very little about vineyard tending and Nortons need a lot of managing from what I understand. So I want to get started with the Muscadines.

Dad-in-law's excited about me getting vines started, and he's granted me some space along the edge of his irrigation system, alongside a fence which should make a decent chest-high trellis. The area gets outstanding sunshine, is on a good slope where water doesn't pool, and of course prelaid irrigation hose is wonderful to get going. I don't have the soil analyzed yet, but it's decent for growing temperamental trees, so it ought to suffice while I get the assay done.

My plans run like this:
* Start with 10 vines at about 15' apart along the fence, which runs for several hundred feet.
* I'm thinking of ordering the following vines (2-year potted from Ison, in lots of 6):

- Noble x2
- Black Beauty x2
- Ison Black x2
- Carlos x2
- Tara x2
- Dixie Red x2​

* Plant (by the end of August) all the Noble, Black Beauty, Ison, and Carlos, and 1 each of Tara and Dixie Red, saving the 2 leftover vines in his greenhouse over the winter.

Here are my questions:
* Is August too early (or in some other way bad) to plant? I was hoping to get them rooted in time for the winter, and do some pruning in February or so.
* How much irrigation is right? I can basically set the system for whatever I need.
* How much trouble am I making for myself by plunging right in as opposed to waiting for 2013?
* Is there anything else I'm missing, or in any other way messing up here?

Many thanks for any and all help,

-Rich

 

[garymc]

I doubt anybody will ship in August. Call your nursery and ask, but I think they won't ship til dormant in Nov. Delicious variety is disease resistant and supposedly tastes good, also makes wine.
I have had better luck with smaller vines. If you can get vines guaranteed disease free, do it.

 

[toddrod]

If they are potted plants then there is no reason not to plant them when they arrive. Consider getting the grow tubes. They will help them grow and also provide some protection from deer.

Irrigation - I would ask Isons about that when ordering

No need top wait until 2013. That only puts you 1 yr behind

Order that muscadine planting book from Isons. It will answer all your questions on growing muscadines. It was the best investment I made when I started.

 

[echoloc8]

garymc, apparently Ison's shipping potted 2-year plants now. (shrug)

toddrod, I do have the Ison Muscadine book and it made for excellent reading. I'm definitely going to go for the grow tubes, even though deer aren't an issue where the property's located.

Thanks for the help!

-Rich

 

[garymc]

I hope they don't get put in a non temperature controlled truck in 100 degree heat. I just transplanted some of my potted plants a couple of weeks ago and they survived, but they didn't spend a day or two in a hot truck.

 

[echoloc8]

Well yeah, me too.

 

[tatud4life]

I doubt Ison's will ship in August. They usually wait until it is planting time in your zone to ship out. Their website probably says taking orders for next year already. I haven't been there in a while. What zone are you in? I have 1 Carlos and 2 Ison's varieties. Planning on a lot more!! Depends on the lot behind me. My Carlos produced a small crop in its second year. The Ison's had a little bit of a hard time getting established. One died and had to be replaced. But both of them are taking off now.

 

[echoloc8]

Ison's is shipping their potted vines now. I placed my order with them this afternoon and according to the lady I spoke with they should be shipping on Monday or Tuesday.

It's bareroot that won't be available until dormancy.

[Edit] Oh, and I'm outside Birmingham, AL. Zone 7b.

[Edit] From the homepage, but you need to scroll down: "Now Shipping Potted 2 Year Muscadines Order Now"

-Rich

 

[echoloc8]

Another question!

The 2-year potted vines I ordered will be 4 to 5 feet tall when I get them. Is it still worth putting the blue grow-tubes on them (which are also 4 or 5 feet long)?

-Rich

 

[bigdrums2]

I think your choices are good, and planting in the fall is great if you can do it. I wouldn't plant in August-could be too much sun exposure for young vines. Norton is a great vine in the vineyard. Have you talked to the people at ozan? They grow and make a norton just south of Birmingham. Also there is another place I believe north of Birmingham that makes a norton. I think you should also check out black Spanish, also called lenoir, and blanc du Bois. I grow both in Mississippi and they are doing well for me-very disease resistant. There is a place I think near talledega that grows black Spanish. I got my from cuttings, so perhaps they would let you have some?

 

[tatud4life]

Ison's is shipping their potted vines now. I placed my order with them this afternoon and according to the lady I spoke with they should be shipping on Monday or Tuesday.

It's bareroot that won't be available until dormancy.

[Edit] Oh, and I'm outside Birmingham, AL. Zone 7b.

[Edit] From the homepage, but you need to scroll down: "Now Shipping Potted 2 Year Muscadines Order Now"

-Rich

That is great!!! I hadn't been there in a while. I've never ordered the potted ones. I usually go with bareroot. I would still go with the grow tubes. I don't know if planting in August or September is too late though.

 

[echoloc8]

I think your choices are good, and planting in the fall is great if you can do it. I wouldn't plant in August-could be too much sun exposure for young vines. Norton is a great vine in the vineyard. Have you talked to the people at ozan? They grow and make a norton just south of Birmingham. Also there is another place I believe north of Birmingham that makes a norton. I think you should also check out black Spanish, also called lenoir, and blanc du Bois. I grow both in Mississippi and they are doing well for me-very disease resistant. There is a place I think near talledega that grows black Spanish. I got my from cuttings, so perhaps they would let you have some?

Thanks for the recommendation! My wife and I have been to Ozan, and loved their Norton wines. I'll be trying to get some vines or juice from them come crush.

I will indeed look into black Spanish and blanc du Bois. I hadn't heard much about them, but will do some research now!

-Rich

 

[bigdrums2]

The black spanish and blanc are doing well for me. There is a place around there called white oaks that supposedly makes a good norton. All three are very disease resistant, especially to pierces disease (norton being more susceptable than the others). Check out the history of black Spanish at fairhaven vineyards site (Texas). Very interesting.

 

[echoloc8]

Another question, for those still following!

Since this is a sort of experiment so far as my father-in-law is concerned, we're not building proper 5-foot Geneva double-curtain trellises. These 10 vines will be using a four-foot split rail fence as their trellis.

What sort of issues should I prepare for?

• Lower yield?
• Overloading/breaking the split rails?
• Harvesting trouble?

I am planning on training the vines to a single runner for 10' in both directions on the top rail of the fence, but I really don't know what else to expect. Ideas?

-Rich

 

[toddrod]

I do not think you will see any problems using the split rail trellis to start off with.

 

[bigdrums2]

Are you putting muscadine on it? My muscadines are about 20 feet long.

 

[tatud4life]

Mine are as well.

 

[echoloc8]

The plan is 10 feet in each direction, or 20' per vine.

-Rich

 

[tatud4life]

That's what I did echo. The only difference is that I have 2 cordons going in both directions. I don't know much about trellising, so you may be doing that already. It seems to work well for muscadines so far.

 

[echoloc8]

Interesting point re: four total cordons. I know about putting two cordons in either direction, but figured since the 'trellis' will be a four-foot fence the lower one would only be two and a half feet off the ground. Is that enough clearance?

Also, yet another question: I won't be able to irrigate to 36 gals a week per vine as the Ison's book recommends, more like 15. Would going four-cordon dilute the vine's resources too much?

-Rich