Stuck fermentation update

[Ajmassa]

My experience went similar. At 24 hrs it never got more than just hearing the crackle if you put your ear to the jar. Another 12 hours of that and I added another cup of stuck wine. And then 12 hours after that I added 2 tablespoons of simple syrup attempting to get a confident fermentation going before I kept doubling up.
But it never showed any strong signs at all aside from the light co2 crackle. And definitely was weak enough to deter me from putting all the wine through that So I made a judgment call and aborted the mission.
But I would definitely make another attempt on both batches if there was something I did wrong The first attempt that prevented the starter from taking off.

 

[Ajmassa]

It definitely didn't help my morale when using that EC Krauss guide (we both happened to use ) of making a starter they are using amount foam as timeline points in the process.
I was going to double the amount of stuck wine "When foam peaks out".
No foam= no confidence.
I wish that website didn't stress the " foam" so much.

I do have a question though. And I understand that it's not recommended and less likely to work, BUT...
If I were to just simply add EC1118 and some nutrients directly to the entire batch, and it did NOT WORK at all, and it all just dropped out and settled on the bottom, and then racked off into a new vessel---could that negatively effect the wine in any way ?

 

[stickman]

You cannot add nutrients to the batch at your low sg. That's why most of the procedures call for nutrients to be added to a starter, this way the yeast are provided what they need during the growth phase. Adding a package of yeast to the batch would do no harm in such small quantity, in fact there are procedures for yeast fining using dry active yeast, with similar results to adding inactive yeast like Noblesse. There are countless recommendations for the addition of yeast hulls when trying to restart a stuck fermentation under difficult conditions. The yeast hulls provide very little nutrition, but adsorb various contaminants known to inhibit fermentation, add the hulls stir and wait 48hrs then rack off.

 

[Siwash]

If co2 is being produced then it is fermenting, that's what you want, you may never reach the high level of foam due to the contaminants from the stuck wine. Let it ferment a while and then double the volume with stuck wine, and wait until it starts to ferment again, that's how to proceed.

Ok, but am I doubling up with water and stuck wine or just wine? I have 750ML right now in each mason - 500 ml wine, 250 water... should I add 500 ml of wine? The activity is pretty weak. It's fizzing a little but you have to put your ear to it to hear.

Also, should I stir up the bottom right now (just like one would do when punching down)? I will continue for another 24 and see what happens.. I have no idea when I should add this extra shot of stuck wine.. Going to have to get bigger containers then if I am adding more. How many more days can this go on? when will I know when to pitch? I've got a lot of wine sitting on gross lees that is air locked.. I guess I can put off that MLF for now..

 

[stickman]

So you are following the Eckraus procedure? You added the yeast nutrients and sugar along with the stuck wine and water? You re-hydrated the yeast first? According to Eckraus you wait 1.5 to 2 days before pitching the starter to the carboy. The lab procedure on page 3 of this post is more involved, but probably has a greater chance of success. There's no way to know for sure what will work. I think you have to pick a procedure and run with it.

 

[Smok1]

Not sure what rehydration procedure your using but you cant use most yeast nutrients while rehydrating, any yeast nutrients containing "DAP" will kill yeast in high concentrates, goferm contains no dap, it is safe to use while Rehydrating your yeast, but fermaid k contains dap, most brands labeled "yeast nutrient" or "yeast energizer" contain dap, if u add fermaid k to your starter it will kill your yeast. I havent read ec krauss startup procedure but i use scott labs procedure, i will find and post it.

http://www.scottlab.com/uploads/documents/downloads/136/2016RestartStuck.pdf

Diammonium Phosphate (DAP) Is what nearly all yeast nutrients contain and they are ment to be mixed as per instructed into the must, not into a yeast starter.

I always make a yeast starter before innoculating any must, whether its fruit, kits, or grapes, ive used ec-1118, k1-1116, 71b, rc212, not all of them foam heavily at first, but ec1118 after 2 hours of properly starting it should definitly have some heavy foam

 

[Ajmassa]

DAP will kill yeast in a starter? I specifically did not use Go-Ferm and used yeast nutrient ferm K as specified in the EC krauss site. It's says to add "yeast nutrient" with the text linked up to their nutrient they sell. They call it "yeast nutrient" and its 100% DAP.
If this is true than every single person who follows those instructions exactly as stated will be unsuccessful. Are you sure this is true? If so then Ed Krauss owes me a few hours of my life back!

 

[Smok1]

DAP will kill yeast in a starter? I specifically did not use Go-Ferm and used yeast nutrient ferm K as specified in the EC krauss site. It's says to add "yeast nutrient" with the text linked up to their nutrient they sell. They call it "yeast nutrient" and its 100% DAP.
If this is true than every single person who follows those instructions exactly as stated will be unsuccessful. Are you sure this is true? If so then Ed Krauss owes me a few hours of my life back!

This pic is right off the scott labs webite, and i have tryed many times using yeast nutrient to rehydrate my yeast and wondered many times why it didnt work and wrote it off as dead yeast. I did a bit of research and realized i was actaully killing my yeast with dap.

 

[Smok1]

When making a starter us only goferm, and some sugar, or some must. Do not use anything containing dap. At least not until those yeast are alive and healthy, then add the appropriate amount according to the instructions.

 

[Ajmassa]

Just found this myself looking up yeast hulls. And Check out that EC Krauss link. I'm pretty irked right about now.

 

[Smok1]

Ya i havent looked at kruass website but i know ive tryed making teast starters using yeast nutrient and my yeast was basically dead after. I ordered goferm ( which i believe is fermaidk minus the dap) and i have not had a yeast starter fail.

 

[Ajmassa]

http://blog.eckraus.com/making-a-wine-yeast-starter-to-restart-a-stuck-fermentation

Here's a screenshot

And when you click on the "yeast nutrient"


New evidence breaks the case wide open! Let's see if we can get this damn thing done now!

 

[Smok1]

Ya well, id say investigate for yourself. I have. Try making a yeast starter with goferm and sugar. And make one side by side with yeast nutrient, i can tell you in my experience goferm alone makes a great starter, whenever ive tryed nutrient or energizer its failed. Like i said earlier i started writing it off as dead yeast packs but eventually i realized that this many yeast packs couldnt be dead, and my success rates using goferm were 100%, Like i posted earlier from scott labs site "dap is toxic to yeast at high concentrations" its a fact in my experience. Goferm is for rehydrating yeast, yeast nutrients go into the must.

This isnt my method, i stole it from a number of sources from here and my wife whos a compounding pharmacist plus a bunch of research weve done, but l use it for making a yeast starter and its never failed for me.

First your yeast are freeze dried. You need to revive them and not stress them out, stressed out yeast give off flavors, you can research this more regarding the way they multiply, they can multiply happy, or they can multilpy deformed and not be happy. Theres lots of info on the web regarding how yeast bend and multipy. Following the instructions for each phase of the yeast life will multiply your chances for success.

1: rehydrate your yeast using goferm following instructions. 1 part yeast 1.25 parts goferm. Add goferm to 43c water whisk in, wait for water to get to 40c and add yeast. wAit 15 min.

2: add 60cc of must ( your yeast culture will be about 38c and your must will be room temp at this point 21c)

3: wait 30 min, add another 60cc of must, every 30 min u add your must, until your yeast starter is the same temp as your must. Every time u add your must (or sugar water) you should be seeing activity (depending on your yeast you may see more or less activity)

4: if your making a starter to reinnoculate a stuck fermentation at this point use sugar water instead of must for the prior must additions, now put in 60cc of your stuck wine.

5: continue this for a couple hours. If after 12 hours its going good your starter should be good to go into your stuck wine.

 

[Siwash]

Not sure what rehydration procedure your using but you cant use most yeast nutrients while rehydrating, any yeast nutrients containing "DAP" will kill yeast in high concentrates, goferm contains no dap, it is safe to use while Rehydrating your yeast, but fermaid k contains dap, most brands labeled "yeast nutrient" or "yeast energizer" contain dap, if u add fermaid k to your starter it will kill your yeast. I havent read ec krauss startup procedure but i use scott labs procedure, i will find and post it.

http://www.scottlab.com/uploads/documents/downloads/136/2016RestartStuck.pdf

Diammonium Phosphate (DAP) Is what nearly all yeast nutrients contain and they are ment to be mixed as per instructed into the must, not into a yeast starter.

I always make a yeast starter before innoculating any must, whether its fruit, kits, or grapes, ive used ec-1118, k1-1116, 71b, rc212, not all of them foam heavily at first, but ec1118 after 2 hours of properly starting it should definitly have some heavy foam

Actually, added nutrient to water first and stirred then added yeast - So i messed this up... ok.. back to the drawing board..

 

[Siwash]

This pic is right off the scott labs webite, and i have tryed many times using yeast nutrient to rehydrate my yeast and wondered many times why it didnt work and wrote it off as dead yeast. I did a bit of research and realized i was actaully killing my yeast with dap.

this is what I did... Go Firm, then yeast.. It was left o stand for an hour at least and it foamed up... I stirred well, used warmish non-chlorinated water (we are on a well).. I mean how darn sensitive is this yeast? EC1118 is supposedly a strong yeast.. going to check on it now

So just checked... the fizzing was still present but seemed to be no more "active" and perhaps even less active - I stirred the contents that settled to the bottom. No one or no instruction said to do this, but at this point.... So at 4PM today it will have been 48 hours since I began the re-start. If there's no noticeable difference, I am goint to go ahead with racking the gross lees starting my MLF and calling it a day.. I'll live with a bit of sugar I guess... this is coming from the person who prefers bone dry wine! I pretty much only drink Italian for that reason... Oh well... next year is going to be a non-winemaking year for the first time in a long time... I will re-energize and refocus for the 2019 year and make sure that this doesn't happen again... I know what I did wrong even if the weather was out of my control, I could have brought the must into the basement... and I should have used more yeast and Go ferm to begin with.

Thanks for everyones help... I learned a lot.

 

[Ajmassa]

this is what I did... Go Firm, then yeast.. It was left o stand for an hour at least and it foamed up... I stirred well, used warmish non-chlorinated water (we are on a well).. I mean how darn sensitive is this yeast? EC1118 is supposedly a strong yeast.. going to check on it now

So just checked... the fizzing was still present but seemed to be no more "active" and perhaps even less active - I stirred the contents that settled to the bottom. No one or no instruction said to do this, but at this point.... So at 4PM today it will have been 48 hours since I began the re-start. If there's no noticeable difference, I am goint to go ahead with racking the gross lees starting my MLF and calling it a day.. I'll live with a bit of sugar I guess... this is coming from the person who prefers bone dry wine! I pretty much only drink Italian for that reason... Oh well... next year is going to be a non-winemaking year for the first time in a long time... I will re-energize and refocus for the 2019 year and make sure that this doesn't happen again... I know what I did wrong even if the weather was out of my control, I could have brought the must into the basement... and I should have used more yeast and Go ferm to begin with.

Thanks for everyones help... I learned a lot.

Now I'm confused. I though you followed the EC Krauss instruction calling for nutrient and yeast added directly to jar containing stuck wine/sugar water mixed.
I'm going for it again. Using that Scott Labs link which specifally says Brix under 1 should not have any nutrient added(I used ferm K). And following the instructions to the letter.
I only have a few hours every afternoon to work in the wine tho. And iv got 2 batches to do this to. Need to go by the LHBS to pick up more stuff. Need more yeast and go-ferm. Scott Labs also recommends Reskue and/or lysozyme which I'll get if they have it. I have reduless but I don't think that would help. Gonna try and do this right

 

[Siwash]

i did but I took some idea from Scott

 

[Kozzie]

Since I'm having that problem as well, so I use a bottle of wine instead of my wine must that won't get to 1.000? I have a bottle of Valpolicella that I made last year.