Yeah, in mine too but I haven't thought of it as fruit solids but rather something like undissolved nutritions. Anyway, it has been so little that it hardly would made even a really thin layer in the carboy. Perhaps one teaspoon or two...
Sur Lie and Bâttonage
- Thread starter winemaker81
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It looks like grape solids, meaning the amount is non-zero. Post-fermentation I assume that solids that didn't deposit in the bag will drop. Maybe I'm putting too much weight on it?
That is an excellent video -- thanks for sharing!
I will admit that I have also considered this as a strong possibility on occasion.
I'm glad I got more contemplation than head shaking.
I have been on many a forum where senior members would rather display their superiority than share their knowledge, or at least the knowledge shared was more of a byproduct of their pontifications than teaching and sharing.
I enjoy that this forum is very inclusive. Whether I'm asking questions or talking about food, there's lots of good to be had here.
This is the first forum I have ever felt enough value to become a supporting member. That speaks to all of the members here.
This is why I asked the question. My kits had definite fruit sediment and based on the above definition it's not yeast hulls, therefore it would have to be gross lees, no?
I think we are quibbling more about definition than anything else and maybe putting to much emphasis on it, but if it's there it's at least not a variable to rule out completely.
You guys are terrible influences! This speaks to both my inner geek and the wannabe scientist that lingers deep within. Thanks to Amazon I can absolutely afford a magnetic stirrer. YES! I have already checked.
This is happening...
Edit: As for his full carboy concerns, it would be very easy to rig up a stand to support the weight of the carboy and allow the stirrer to sit underneath if anyone is considering that.
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For shots?
I don't know that anyone can really spot them precisely. I kind of wonder if "gross lees causing off flavors" is really a wine making knee-jerk sort of thing like I find racking every three months to be from my own personal experience.I have difficulty is fully identifying gross and fine lees.
Why?
I know and have read all the literature. But.... I have not found them to be fully accurate for me.
For example, I have had 1 cm or 0.5 cm of lees and they seem to impact the wine the same. Or not. And I have had a "dusting" of lees when stirred do amazing things or damage the wine when a thicker lees had no effect.
There is a heck of a lot more biology and chemistry going on there than I have been able to figure out.
Frustrating.
Similarly, I have found knee-jerk reactions to doing alcohol fermentation at the same time as malolactic fermentations; I do that and have had no problems in my own personal experience. There's research online now that indicates that the malolactic bacteria actually do better that way because there's less alcohol around them.
One of us is going to need to do some experiments, I suspect.
- Whether gross lees create off flavors
- Whether fine lees create off flavors
- Whether gross lees create beneficial flavors
- Whether fine lees create beneficial flavors
- How sur lie impacts wine
- How battonage impacts wine
I wonder about this too. When I hear people talking about "gross lees" I get the impression that they mean either:
1. Fruit pulp rather than dead yeast cells
2. Lots of lees vs. only a little bit of lees
When people to sur lie, does it matter how much lees there are? I wonder if there is a threshold at which the lees are too thick to do sur lee?
1. Fruit pulp rather than dead yeast cells
2. Lots of lees vs. only a little bit of lees
When people to sur lie, does it matter how much lees there are? I wonder if there is a threshold at which the lees are too thick to do sur lee?
I went to the liquor store today and asked if they had any wines that were aged sur lie.
'Aged what, now?
My first thought.. I shoulda seen this coming.
'Aged on the lees or settled yeast to impart different flavors as it breaks down over the aging process'...
'I've never heard of that.'
I knew I had overstepped the knowledge base, but I have been watching videos leading from one place to another. I have watched wineries discussing it and upcoming wines with distinctive qualities they are very excited to share. I was starting to think it was a common thing. There should be a couple bottles among the hundreds that have been aged sur lie in the store, for sure. Maybe I can try two from the same winery and compare the difference...
The world in my head is much different than the one in small town Alberta.
It was a 5 minute conversation and another employee was called over. He mentioned customers wouldn't want to buy a wine with sediment in the bottle...
I gave them a quick education on sur lie aged wines and was told if I can find it they'll be happy to order it.
I was happy to tuck tail and run. 'Thanks so much, I will try google. Have a great day!
It was awkward and hilarious at the same time. How excited I was for this new experience, only to get looked at like I was speaking french.
'Aged what, now?
My first thought.. I shoulda seen this coming.
'Aged on the lees or settled yeast to impart different flavors as it breaks down over the aging process'...
'I've never heard of that.'
I knew I had overstepped the knowledge base, but I have been watching videos leading from one place to another. I have watched wineries discussing it and upcoming wines with distinctive qualities they are very excited to share. I was starting to think it was a common thing. There should be a couple bottles among the hundreds that have been aged sur lie in the store, for sure. Maybe I can try two from the same winery and compare the difference...
The world in my head is much different than the one in small town Alberta.
It was a 5 minute conversation and another employee was called over. He mentioned customers wouldn't want to buy a wine with sediment in the bottle...
I gave them a quick education on sur lie aged wines and was told if I can find it they'll be happy to order it.
I was happy to tuck tail and run. 'Thanks so much, I will try google. Have a great day!
It was awkward and hilarious at the same time. How excited I was for this new experience, only to get looked at like I was speaking french.
FlamingoEmporium
Senior Member
We’ll you were.
I've found articles that address 2, 4, 5, & 6.
1 & 3 are the big questions. There is a lot of misinformation that I liken to legends, that predate the internet. Pre Internet, we learned from experienced winemakers or books, both of which were of varying accuracy.
With the net, there is so much information available, and enough of us are reading to eventually weed out the misinformation.
I was taught to get wine off the gross lees quickly, and have found "authoritative" references that state the gross lees begin to rot immediately.
Yet folks are doing EM up to 10 weeks with no ill effects. So ... someone is wrong. I'm going to believe the practical evidence.
But we still need to think. Is there a difference between a pressed wine setting on gross lees, and an unpressed wine setting on the pomace? I don't think so ... but am not confident enough to judge.
I immediately knew where this story was going!
Look for wines from Loire, as I believe sur lie is common there. If the store does tastings, suggest sur lie as a topic.
I used to belong to the American Wine Society, and there is a local chapter. I may re-join, as tastings were both informative and fun.
Lets not get stuck on details!
So did I, but I was still experiencing it!I immediately knew where this story was going!
The facial expression was enough to make me think to myself....
This takes us back to the beginning with the small amounts of sediment in kits as well as suspended solids when racking from pressed grapes (unless it's just me that's stuck on it). Whether it is gross lees, and if so, enough to be beneficial or detrimental.
It would be interesting to do a side by side comparison. It would be easy enough to filter/strain the sediment from a kit. I can't see it being beneficial to add gross lees to the equation, though, as all flavors are described as nutty, earthy, etc. all the things yeast would introduce and considerably only result from autolysis (yup, I've been reading), not the decomposition of fruit solids.
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The way I think of it and admittedly, I might be soooo wrong, is that any fruit solids that is present in the juice bag (talking white wine kits here) have been there for a long time before the the kit maker starts the fermentation. Perhaps up to a year or more, so any thing that could be extracted, has been so. The gross lees post fermentation won't be a problem (if extraction would be the cause).
That leaves us with the fermentation period to be cause of any possible off flavors from the fruits parts, meaning that the yeast would have to act upon the fruit solids, directly or indirectly via some chemical reaction between the solids and fermentation products. I have no knowledge of this so I shouldn't be speculating but as @winemaker81 says "Yet folks are doing EM up to 10 weeks with no ill effects. So ... someone is wrong. I'm going to believe the practical evidence. " I'm in that camp to.
Anyway, I have to do a trail myself and divide a sav blanc kit into two 11.5 liters batches, one with and one without lees. In addition I will force carbonate 5 liter of each.
FlamingoEmporium
Senior Member
Hey, the coconut wine I just started has no fruit solids in it. (Except for those two tiny pieces of grass) so technically no gross lees ? Only from yeast ?
If you let the coconut water set for a few days, nothing settles out? If so, yeah, you're probably right.
