FlamingoEmporium
Senior Member
We will know in another day or 2. So I won’t be able to Sur Lie my coconut wine to improve or alter taste ?
Sur Lie and Bâttonage
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You should be able to do sur lie. I was thinking from an all-or-nothing POV. If there are fruit solids, it won't be much.
balatonwine
The Verecund Vigneron
That has all the indications of a bar joke.... The type that starts with a priest and two ducks walk into a bar....
A liquor store employ is there to sell booze. If you want to really play with their head, ask them if they have any Amber Wine...
My FWK Pinot Noir and Bordeaux Blend are currently doing extended maceration on the gross lees under airlock in primary. Planning to let them go for around eight weeks, then stabilize and rack to a carboy. I'll taste at that point. It's a $200+/- experiment. I made myself a note to let you guys know how it goes. EM is my only variation from the instructions, so should be a good indication of whether this is perceivable to my nose and taste buds; my speculation is no, but we shall see.
It actually has all the indications of how obsessed I am with wine. I went to town for completely unrelated reasons, yet, I still ended up in a liquor store talking sur lie.
It was my mechanics birthday, so in addition to running errands, I picked up an ice cream cake and a bottle of his favorite rum..
The rum was just an excuse to get me in the right building to scratch my own itches. I feel I should be ashamed, but I'm not. Not even a little.
I find good information on Wine Folly if you want to have more depth about a topic like sur lies so that you're armed for conversations at your next liquor store encounter: What Are Wine Lees? (Sur Lie Explained) | Wine Folly This article covers the method, history, the techniques, how long each varietal is aged on lees, and also gives you a four wines you can try that use the method.
They have oodles of information and also tasting kits, posters, and other merchandise.
https://winefolly.com/https://winefolly.com/wine-basics-beginners-guide/https://winefolly.com/grapes/
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balatonwine
The Verecund Vigneron
Being experimenting over the past 20 years, I might have thrown an order of magnitude or two greater in cost.
Maybe I wasted my time and money..... I may have had fixed ideas.
From experience, the small experimenters often have better success and can be more helpful and provide more info then those that throw money at an issue. Money can at times be blind to small scale, innovative ideas. Sad but true. If you spend $20 K you may be unwilling to shift to another idea. Even if aware of the cost sunk fallacy. But if you only spent $200, you may be far more agile.
So I fully support your work. Small is actually, and often, better. Let us know how things work for you.
Hope this helps.
I cannot help but think, yes, there would be a difference. The two are very different and as such I cannot help but imagine they would each affect the final product in differing ways. It sure seems, from everything I read, small additions or removals can often have an affect on wine taste. The first rack post ferment is removing a massive quantity of solids (pomace) and wood chips. You would think that removing it has to have some affect on the final taste versus sitting on the in EM for however long.
However, I think the only way to know for sure is to run a side by side comparison of identical wines.
I think to believe that there is one right answer for every situation is completely misfounded. I'm finding that making wine is much like making BBQ. There are a lot of variations and they all impart different qualities and to varying degrees. Meat differences, cook temp variation, seasoning, wood type, smoke amount, type of smoker, prep times, prep style, final cool temps, basting while cooking, chamber humidity, etc. The possibilities are nearly endless. This is why there are BBQ competitions and also why I love BBQ. It's more about the journey and less about the destination. Once you reach the goal post, you're just looking for the next opportunity to start again.
Love it!
Makes sense to me.
Both of the premium kits I have in secondary have been aging sur lie for 6 weeks as per kit instructions. Do you suspect this is an attempt to add mouth feel and depth to the wine allowing an 8 week kit to display more robust aging qualities sooner. Or, is 6 weeks not enough time for lees to have any effect and the technique is just geared to offer the beginner the easiest methods for highest success?
Because I was making Skeeter Pee I saved the lees from both kits. I discussed continued sur lie aging the pinot grigio, but ruled it out because of the Kieselsol and Chitosan that was added on racking. Next week I am going to rack it to a 3 gallon carboy. Part of me wants to add a gallon back on the original lees with no chemicals added (assuming there are no detectable off flavors. It has been stored in the fridge with wine covering the surface) and sit it on a stir plate for a couple of months. Any thoughts?
Because I was making Skeeter Pee I saved the lees from both kits. I discussed continued sur lie aging the pinot grigio, but ruled it out because of the Kieselsol and Chitosan that was added on racking. Next week I am going to rack it to a 3 gallon carboy. Part of me wants to add a gallon back on the original lees with no chemicals added (assuming there are no detectable off flavors. It has been stored in the fridge with wine covering the surface) and sit it on a stir plate for a couple of months. Any thoughts?
Laserwine
Junior
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I am new to wine makingvand this thread is very educational. I am going to use a 5 gallon wine kit from Williams Brewing and it says leave in the primary fermenter for 25 days then rack to secondary fermenter (carboy) top off and age it for three months. Is this a different version if sur lie without stirring? Is leaving the must in the 1st fermenter for 25 days to long? I am researching before fermenting. Thank you all!!
I have used Williams kits before, but I do not follow their instructions. It's best to transfer to carboy when the Specific Gravity remains the same for three days straight. Typically, that means below 1.000 and this will occur in 10 to 20 days. Get yourself a hydrometer to check the S.G.
@Laserwine, kit instructions will state to leave in the fermenter for an extended period of time as there is no guarantee the budding winemaker has a hydrometer, so this helps ensure fermentation is complete. Kit instructions are optimized for beginners that have no experienced help, to ensure a successful result.
@Chuck E's advice is spot on.
This assumes the kit doesn't include a skin pack (dried grape skins for extra color & body). A process called Extended Maceration is often used when I skin pack is included, but I'm guessing that's not the case.
@Chuck E's advice is spot on.
This assumes the kit doesn't include a skin pack (dried grape skins for extra color & body). A process called Extended Maceration is often used when I skin pack is included, but I'm guessing that's not the case.
Since we've been discussing lees, and how to identify them one way or another, I took a leap into the world of Google Scholar to see what the literature said. After about a half hour of "lees are what's left after fermentation" descriptions, I came across this:
Jara-Palacios MJ. Wine Lees as a Source of Antioxidant Compounds. Antioxidants. 2019; 8(2):45. Wine Lees as a Source of Antioxidant Compounds
https://www.mdpi.com/2076-3921/8/2/45/htm
"According to literature and EEC regulation No. 337/79, wine lees can be defined as “a residue that is formed at the bottom of wine containers, after fermentation, during storage or after treatments, as well as the residue obtained after the filtration or centrifugation of this product” [8]. On the one hand, wine lees can be classified into three groups depending on the stage of vinification: first- and second-fermentation lees, which are formed during the alcoholic and malolactic fermentations, respectively, and aging wine lees formed during wine aging in wood barrels [9]. On the other hand, wine lees also can be classified depending on the particle size: heavy lees (between 100 μm and 2 mm, settling within 24 h) and light lees (<100 μm, between 1 and 24 μm, and in suspension at least 24 h after agitation) [10,11].
The main characteristics of wine lees are acidic pH (between 3 and 6), a chemical oxygen demand above 30,000 mg/L, potassium levels around 2500 mg/L, and phenolic compounds in amounts up to 1000 mg/L [12].
This winemaking byproduct is composed of solid and liquid fractions [13]. The solid fraction is a combination of yeasts, organic acids (mainly tartaric acid), insoluble carbohydrates (such as cellulosic or hemicellulosic materials), inorganic salts, lignin, proteins, phenolic compounds, and pulp and other parts of the grape. The liquid fraction is mainly composed of ethanol and organic acids, as lactic acid and acetic acid [2,10,13,14,15].
The composition of wine lees depends on environmental conditions, regions of origin and their agronomic characteristics, the grape variety, and the time of aging in the wood barrels [13,16]."
Jara-Palacios MJ. Wine Lees as a Source of Antioxidant Compounds. Antioxidants. 2019; 8(2):45. Wine Lees as a Source of Antioxidant Compounds
https://www.mdpi.com/2076-3921/8/2/45/htm
"According to literature and EEC regulation No. 337/79, wine lees can be defined as “a residue that is formed at the bottom of wine containers, after fermentation, during storage or after treatments, as well as the residue obtained after the filtration or centrifugation of this product” [8]. On the one hand, wine lees can be classified into three groups depending on the stage of vinification: first- and second-fermentation lees, which are formed during the alcoholic and malolactic fermentations, respectively, and aging wine lees formed during wine aging in wood barrels [9]. On the other hand, wine lees also can be classified depending on the particle size: heavy lees (between 100 μm and 2 mm, settling within 24 h) and light lees (<100 μm, between 1 and 24 μm, and in suspension at least 24 h after agitation) [10,11].
The main characteristics of wine lees are acidic pH (between 3 and 6), a chemical oxygen demand above 30,000 mg/L, potassium levels around 2500 mg/L, and phenolic compounds in amounts up to 1000 mg/L [12].
This winemaking byproduct is composed of solid and liquid fractions [13]. The solid fraction is a combination of yeasts, organic acids (mainly tartaric acid), insoluble carbohydrates (such as cellulosic or hemicellulosic materials), inorganic salts, lignin, proteins, phenolic compounds, and pulp and other parts of the grape. The liquid fraction is mainly composed of ethanol and organic acids, as lactic acid and acetic acid [2,10,13,14,15].
The composition of wine lees depends on environmental conditions, regions of origin and their agronomic characteristics, the grape variety, and the time of aging in the wood barrels [13,16]."
FlamingoEmporium
Senior Member
Now I need a micro micrometer microscope to measure my lees AND a ph meter, and….
@David Violante Thanks for posting this article. It focuses primarily on finding other uses for wine lees because of the beneficial phenolics and other compounds in lees:
As it happens, yesterday I decanted some lees from cranberry-orange wine that I have had in the fridge for about 3 weeks to let the lees settle. The recovered wine went into a wine bottle for future topping off. I tasted the lees, and they had a very nice, strong cranberry flavor. Of course it was tart, but actually pretty good with a little added sugar. A bit yeasty of course, but not too strong. Considering all the health benefits of cranberries and the B vitamins in yeast cells, this might make a good health drink. Next step: hard cranberry smoothie!
As it happens, yesterday I decanted some lees from cranberry-orange wine that I have had in the fridge for about 3 weeks to let the lees settle. The recovered wine went into a wine bottle for future topping off. I tasted the lees, and they had a very nice, strong cranberry flavor. Of course it was tart, but actually pretty good with a little added sugar. A bit yeasty of course, but not too strong. Considering all the health benefits of cranberries and the B vitamins in yeast cells, this might make a good health drink. Next step: hard cranberry smoothie!
I found quite a lot of articles that use the lees in ice-cream. I think the best rate was at 40%. I'll have to find them and post them. There's a product called nutritional yeast that I believe does something similar. I'll have to look...
OK- here's just a few... looks like many of these folks were at home with wine making supplies and food the last couple years... hmmm... I wonder if we put one in the other...
Troilo M, Difonzo G, Paradiso VM, Summo C, Caponio F. Bioactive Compounds from Vine Shoots, Grape Stalks, and Wine Lees: Their Potential Use in Agro-Food Chains. Foods. 2021; 10(2):342. Bioactive Compounds from Vine Shoots, Grape Stalks, and Wine Lees: Their Potential Use in Agro-Food Chains
Sharma, A.K., Aglawe, M.K. Addition of Processed Fine Wine Lees of Cabernet Sauvignon to Improve Nutraceutical Properties of Yoghurt. Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci., India, Sect. B Biol. Sci. 92, 141–147 (2022). https://doi.org/10.1007/s40011-021-01326-y
Tsevdou, M., Aprea, E., Betta, E. et al. Rheological, Textural, Physicochemical and Sensory Profiling of a Novel Functional Ice Cream Enriched with Muscat de Hamburg (Vitis vinifera L.) Grape Pulp and Skins. Food Bioprocess Technol 12, 665–680 (2019). https://doi.org/10.1007/s11947-019-2237-3
On Nutritional Yeast:
Jach ME, Serefko A, Ziaja M, Kieliszek M. Yeast Protein as an Easily Accessible Food Source. Metabolites. 2022; 12(1):63. Yeast Protein as an Easily Accessible Food Source
Troilo M, Difonzo G, Paradiso VM, Summo C, Caponio F. Bioactive Compounds from Vine Shoots, Grape Stalks, and Wine Lees: Their Potential Use in Agro-Food Chains. Foods. 2021; 10(2):342. Bioactive Compounds from Vine Shoots, Grape Stalks, and Wine Lees: Their Potential Use in Agro-Food Chains
Sharma, A.K., Aglawe, M.K. Addition of Processed Fine Wine Lees of Cabernet Sauvignon to Improve Nutraceutical Properties of Yoghurt. Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci., India, Sect. B Biol. Sci. 92, 141–147 (2022). https://doi.org/10.1007/s40011-021-01326-y
Tsevdou, M., Aprea, E., Betta, E. et al. Rheological, Textural, Physicochemical and Sensory Profiling of a Novel Functional Ice Cream Enriched with Muscat de Hamburg (Vitis vinifera L.) Grape Pulp and Skins. Food Bioprocess Technol 12, 665–680 (2019). https://doi.org/10.1007/s11947-019-2237-3
On Nutritional Yeast:
Jach ME, Serefko A, Ziaja M, Kieliszek M. Yeast Protein as an Easily Accessible Food Source. Metabolites. 2022; 12(1):63. Yeast Protein as an Easily Accessible Food Source
My first hard cranberry smoothie!
So how is it?
